Imposter Syndrome and YOU - Interview With Julia Hohenadel

Both of their names were Nick. >> So there was like smart Nick one, smart Nick 2, and then there was me. I was like the other Nick that was not smart. Is imposter syndrome real or is it just something that software engineers have made up? Do we just talk about it to try and deal with some of the problems we have and make explanations for things that don't really exist? Hi, my name is Nick Coantino and I'm a principal software engineering manager at Microsoft. In this video, I was very fortunate to be joined by one of my previous interns. Her name is Julia, and I worked with her prior to being at Microsoft at a company called Magnet Forensics. As legend has it, when Julia was working for us as an intern, she wanted to go to a women in tech conference. And I said, "Absolutely, you can go, but on one condition, you have to come back and teach the team about what you learn." Now, Julia went away to go learn about imposter syndrome. when she came back, she taught our whole team about what she had taken from that conference and it's kind of stuck with us ever since then. I even had her come in as an external speaker at Microsoft to teach us about imposter syndrome and that was very wellreceived. So, I'm really excited about this conversation and I think that if you're experiencing imposter syndrome or starting to think about what that means, I think you'll have a lot that you can take away from this. So, sit back, enjoy, and let me know in the comments if you like these kinds of videos. Thanks, and I'll see you next time. Uh yeah, so I started on our certify team. So that's the app that um like internet technicians will have and like when they set up your um Wi-Fi connection, they like certify that it's the best. So you they go around your house and uh check like if you have any dead spots or like where you should put mesh pods and stuff like that. So, I was on there for I think 3 months. So, then we just started like this huge um project update for our like main breadand butter app and I was working on that for like 18 months. Um >> Wow. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. It was a huge overhaul. I called it the Yassification. Um we really wanted to get that out there and now we're like finally in the release phase. So, I'm like so happy to like see it like go into customers hands and hearing good stuff about it. Thank God. >> Yeah, that's I mean after that long too, like it's definitely good to have some feedback. Did you guys have to do anything? I'm trying to think. It's like it's a it's a an app, right? So, did you get to do any type of like user feedback testing along the way? Because with live services, it's easy. You can like AB test, but if it's an app, like did you have that luxury? Yeah, it was um pretty we we I think over a year of getting it in people's hands and getting opinions on it. Um we really wanted to um put the user experience first. So, um, our goal was to test a lot and as we like grew and grew and grew, we sorry, as we got closer to the finish line, we kind of grew the user base and Google Play and um, the App Store, they have like pretty awesome beta testing functionalities where you can like have subsets of um, users like have access to the new update. So, yeah, we were just rolling that out slowly but surely. >> That's cool. And this you were saying the the initial thing was for the technicians but this one is for like more typical end users like me if I wanted to go download it kind of thing or was that still for tech? >> No. Um, so this is for like your typical end user, which what's great is actually we went on a field trip um halfway through this development process and we actually went to like an internet service provider and we like sat in the in the call center and like listen to the calls and like we were listening to the agents like walk through like using our application to like troubleshoot Wi-Fi issues which was like really awesome. And so basically like you could download it through your ISP or like if you get on a phone with someone, they might tell you to download it and you like run a network health scan or you could like if if you like if your moto modem was like not set up correctly and it was like showing a bunch of lights, you could like take a picture and send it to someone and they'd be like, "Oh, well do this, this, and this." Like there's just a bunch of different tools um that like help you get your Wi-Fi back. >> Awesome. And so you were doing primarily like the Android side of things you were telling me. Is that right? >> Yeah. Yeah, that's correct. So I was doing mostly the Android side of things, but uh I did do a little bit of iOS stuff and um I've always been interested in security. So I uh was working on that for um across platforms as well. And just this week actually I finished uh one of the website tickets. So that was pretty scary. But yeah, it's nice to get my hands in like different aspects of the code, >> right? So, do you think maybe going forward like is your goal to spend maybe more time on different like maybe kind of moving on from some of the Android stuff or maybe keeping the Android stuff some of your core but trying to I don't know get your hands into some of the other pieces whether it's iOS or web development. Yeah, I definitely love Android and I'm not ready to leave it anytime soon, but okay. Um, I want to be more flexible in like just being able to hop on an iOS ticket if I need it, even though that means, you know, using Xcode. Boo. Um, and working on the back end, too, if we need like all hands on deck. Like, >> cool. >> Yeah, I'm just trying to widen my T-shape, >> right? Yeah. No, that's a that's a great reference. I think uh one of the things that I try to like when I'm talking especially with like say more junior software engineers and stuff or people that want to get into software engineering it's like what do I focus on like tell me the best language and like the best thing I can I'm like there's no there's no best like um and where do where do I start and I'm like I don't know what you even want to build but you know trying to get some type of time to work on something like try it out see how it feels and it sounds really cool because you're building all this Android expertise And you're kind of going, cool, I have this as my core and going to the T-shape analogy. Like you're the tea is growing taller in Android, but how can you start to get that breadth across the top of the tea, which is cool. You're you're doing it. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's my goal for 2024. Woo. >> Nice. No, that's awesome. That's great. Um and no, it's cool, too. The company you've been at is is growing like you're saying, right? So um how have you found and I I don't need the details on stuff you can't share or whatever but um in terms of like culture teams like uh spinning up teams growing like how is all that like that's a journey I know when we were at Magnet Forensics together right we got to see some of that growth um and I'm just kind of curious you're kind of living through another kind of like growth phase at a different company. >> Yeah. Um, I will say that the growth phase at wrote this is much more uh dynamic right now. I think it kind of had leveled off by the time I was at magnet. There were no ball fights anymore um in my eight months as an intern there. Um, but route this has been it's been a really interesting journey. Um, I've gone through a a couple like they're they're just really um growing as a company. So instead of I joined at the end of the startup phase and now h I forget the corporate lingo for it but we're in the we're not a startup anymore and we're just like we have our sea legs and we want to keep this ship sailing um pirate analogies and anyway um throughout this we've had a lot of different ships to our teams um and we're really like um building up a a nice scaffolding and kind of like adding it's not just bunch of tech grows coding anymore which is my favorite part of uh the um organization like feeling like I can help it grow. Um and like I it seems a little demeaning saying into the big boy pants but it really is what it is. Like it's it's just a really fun time to be here. >> Well that's cool. Like so you're noticing I know it use like the techro analogy but like a you're kind of seeing things mature and start to stabilize and form to be a little bit more structured at this point. Is that fair to say? >> Thank you so much for summarizing exactly what I tried to say. You're like my personal chat GPT. How do I say this succinctly? >> That's why they that's why they pay me the big bucks. I'm basically I am chat GPT. I sit on the other side and people send me messages. But um yeah. No, no, that's cool. I'm >> I remember just turning around and being like, "Nick, I need your brain." >> No, it's it's uh that's cool to hear that you have like I don't know. It's like I think some people don't get to experience that in some of their software engineering career. Um or you know, some people start off and they're like, "Okay, well the my goal is like I need to be at Facebook, Microsoft, Amazon." Like that's just the only thing in their head. And it's like there's so many interesting experiences outside of just writing code that you can have at different companies and you're getting to live through part of this. So that's really cool. >> Oh, definitely. It's it was one of the appeals about this just it means a lot to me to be able to not just code but also to like contribute positively to a company's culture. Um, I I like to go all out like Halloween contest and uh Christmas cookies and all that stuff. So, it it's really special. >> Oh, that's good. I think like again some people there's so much emphasis on like like it's work. Like how do I I don't know. It's like a beall end all like how do I like master career? And it's like you got to remember that you're going to be at work for a large portion of your life and if you're not enjoying it and finding other ways to like I don't know just like be happy like it's not it's not going to be a great journey right like all this hyper optimization about like how many lead code problems do I have to do and like I don't know just I think some people end up missing the mark and it's like you know how can you get more out of like your your time at a company and enjoy it more. >> I totally agree. I was just going to add um one of my favorite parts about um joining a bit of a smaller company is um somehow I feel um more confident in that no one really knows what we're doing. Um when I first started we didn't have a lot of senior devs on my team. We were working on this huge update and the Android side was uh two new devs. sorry, two new grads and um that was really great as I started off this is my very first job so helping me u grow my confidence it was like really good >> that's cool it's like uh I think in some situations people are like hey there's more senior people on the team I can learn from them but at the same time that can be intimidating because you have these people where you're like hey they're they're so they're so much better I mean however you happen to look at it but when you're with other people that are you're learning with like it can be a really cool experience too where there's no there's I don't know if the judgment is maybe like in our own heads we're like oh these people are judging how good I am or something but you're around other people that are also learning and you're like hey we're going to figure this out together and it can be really cool. >> No exactly literally it strikes like a really great mental balance of like oh my god we're failing together and we're learning together. >> Learning together. That was like the best part of it. Yeah. And like thank you for mentioning that, right? Because like the you say failing together and I think like you and I have worked together and I think we're probably on the same page when it comes to failing. It's like yeah, like some people get afraid of that word, right? Oh, like you can't you can't talk about people failing. Like that's bad. It's like no, we fail all the time and we're going to be learning from it, but we're going to be failing. It's going to happen and those are opportunities. But some people are like, "Oh, that's icky. Don't say it." But if we're not failing, we're not trying, right? >> Yeah. It's uh I always go back to, you know, I consider things a true failure. If you're repeating the same mistakes and you're having the same failures, then it's like, okay, like then we're not doing something right genuinely and we're not learning. >> That's a really great point. This is why you're such a good mentor at Magnet, full of good learnings. >> There we go. It's all the learnings. But so Julia, I I have said this to you before and uh I was telling you when we got on this call, like last night when I was live streaming, I was like all pumped to tell people. I'm like, I'm going to be getting on this call tomorrow. I'm going to be talking about a topic that I really love. And I think to be totally honest like I think you kind of um like kickstarted that for me back way back in the day when we were working together because I was aware of this concept but I don't think that I really realize the impact of it and that's one of our favorite topics imposter syndrome. So I wanted to be able to pick your brain >> about imposttor syndrome. I wanted to put you on the spot to talk about it and share all your thoughts and then I can ask you questions. Um, I don't even know where to start. I know you have tons of different thoughts and opinions about imposter syndrome, different experiences sharing that with people. Um, maybe I can turn it over to you if you're comfortable and if you want to kind of, you know, start where you usually start when you're telling people about what imposter syndrome is and why it's important for us to talk about. >> Yeah. Um, I totally will. Um, I was reflecting on this earlier today. Um I'm I was so happy that we had this chance to give this talk because like sorry it's not a talk we're having a conversation and >> but it's it's educational. Yes, >> is we're doing learnins together and I really attribute you to uh my like fascination with imposter syndrome because uh you were my manager at the time that I went to CAN Sewick, the Canadian Convention of Women in Computing and um it really helped kickstart that conference helped kickstart my fascination with imposttor syndrome. Uh, as you know, um, I was tasked, uh, to create a presentation for the all boy team when I got back. What I learned, and this was like my biggest takeaway. Um, and I just remember being like 20 years old in this room full of you guys at such brilliant devs and I learned so much from you during my internship and saying to your faces during the very first iteration of my talk, "Yeah, I'm I've never felt imposter syndrome." And I remember one of our co-workers saying, "Are you sure about that? was I was probably feeling it at that moment standing in a conference room in front of you all. But that's neither here nor there. Yeah, it's um I'm going to start with what I usually say just so that we're all on the same page. Maybe you need a refresher. Maybe I do. Um imposttor syndrome. It's this phenomenon that's felt by a wide variety of people who work in a wide variety of fields, but um it's not something people other than you or I really talk about. Um but it's like this persistent inability to believe that your own success is deserved or has been legitimately achieved as a result of your own effort or skills. So, you know, you think you're a fraud who doesn't actually belong in some place or some role uh because you can't see you've earned your spot at the table, even though you absolutely have. Like me standing in a conference room in front of five guys talking about what I learned at a tech conference. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And would you say a lot of it is like a self-confidence, self-esteem type of thing? like would it be rooted in that kind of context or do you have a different perspective on maybe like the root of what imposter syndrome is? No, I definitely think it h it's all up here in your big beautiful brain and I believe that's another reason why it's not talked so much because well thankfully subjects uh around surrounding mental health and mental well-being are becoming less taboo but it's still very difficult uh for people to talk about them and find the words for them I find. So yeah, it's definitely all up in your head. Um, and sorry, I'm just I have so many thoughts about this subject. I love talking about it. Um, it's just like all the thoughts are coming to the forefront, but it's it's about your relationship with your success and your achievements. Oh, my Italian's coming out. Of how you perceive yourself. It's this phenomenon that's born from like comparing yourself to others. Um, >> and so it definitely has to do with all that mental like comparison and self- negativity and all that. >> Right. So I've I've been hearing more recent this is like one of the things that unfortunately happens when I start posting more stuff on the internet but some of it's like I mean majority of the time I'm very happy with getting responses and feedback and seeing different perspectives but this is the first time recently in the past couple months where I've been seeing people basically saying things along the lines of like imposter syndrome is not real and if you're I'm waiting for you to get triggered. want to watch the response in your face. If imposter syndrome is not real, um, if you if you're experiencing imposttor syndrome or like, you know, air quotes imposter syndrome, it's because you are an imposttor. You don't actually have skill. I had someone respond to me recently and say that they don't think that any any true leaders actually experience imposttor syndrome. And I started to hear some of this stuff and the I you're the first person I think about. I'm like, how would Julia respond to this? Because I have some some choice words, I think. But like, I know that you think a lot about this stuff because you talk about it and like you have put a lot more effort and thought process into this than I probably ever have. So, I'm I'm curious when you hear stuff like this, like what comes to your mind when someone says imposter syndrome is not even real. Like, that's fabricated. >> Okay. Straight up. The first thing that came to my mind is like, have you ever worked over your tail job and your co-workers? There's like some people who like they're a lifer. Like, you know, this is just a stepping stone for you in your career path, >> but they are just like it's like how do you still have a job? How how are you working here kind of thing? and they have the audacity to turn to you and say like nothing would be done without me here. Like >> I hold this place together. Like that's what I think of when like >> um what did you say? Um no real leader. If >> no real leader, >> no, sorry that that that the phrase you said that sparked that in me was um if you feel like an imposttor, it probably is cuz you are one. But yeah, >> sometimes the people who don't belong think that they are like the keystone to an organization. It's just >> it's all to do um like with what's in your head. And I I believe like you know I was 20 and I was like I've never had imposttor syndrome like um and I totally had. It's just maybe it's just not a feeling we know what to put words to or want to admit to ourselves or especially in like a the shield of a computer screen saying, "Oh, you can't feel imposter syndrome if you're a real leader." Like blah blah blah. Like I just I think it's so ironic. um and kind of like strengthens my point that it's just like not talked about and not well understood and that's why we need to talk about it, >> right? It's almost like you know if you have imposter syndrome that's clearly a weakness like clearly only weak people, weak-minded people that aren't in a you know a position of any success. only those people would ever have imposttor syndrome and it's like >> absolutely >> absolutely not. >> I know right. So I think like when we've talked about imposttor syndrome like and you know you can chime in on this and if you have different perspectives or want to elaborate but it's like you you talked about it's this kind of relationship with your success right so your your kind of skill level your success how you're comparing yourself to others something that seems to come up is like okay I have a couple different directions I could and want to go with this but one thing is like you had said hey this is It's not it's a kind of all industries. It doesn't matter. But why is it so prevalent with software engineers? Why why does it seem like if it is going to be talked about? It's software engineering. It's not like I don't hear people talking about I'm going to be a I don't know an accountant and I have imposter syndrome. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I just I don't hear other crowds of people talking about it. Do you or do you feel like it is more focused on like software engineering? No, I don't hear a lot crowds of other people talking about it and I do think it's quite focused on software engineering in particular. I think our field is just more prone to it. Um now one of the things that um heightens a sense of imposttor syndrome is like feeling like you're the odd one out. Like for example, it's talked a lot about women in computing conferences just because there's fewer uh women and um non-binary and non uh male straight white male even just you know uh straight white males make up the majority of uh tech. And so the people who don't look or feel like that, they aren't um they have less people to compare themselves to and um there's more doubt when you stick out like a sore thumb. You kind of wonder if you even belong there in the first place. Right. But I was thinking to your point, it's it's not only um like nonmale people who experience imposter syndrome and tech, but like I want to like talk to you like do you remember in like high school or university computer science classes there's always like one guy who was just a tech god? >> Yeah. >> Or even >> if I can say for one moment, you know what was terrible for me? in the University of Wateroo. >> The top two people in my class that always had perfect marks. >> Both of their names were Nick. >> So there was like smart Nick one, smart Nick 2, and then there was me. I was like the other Nick that was not smart. So I had that through all of university. Like that's >> You went to UW, so you're definitely very very smart. It's like >> I was not the smart Nick, right? And I wasn't even the second smart Nick. I was just the other Nick. >> You were the third Nick. >> That there was probably another Nick that was smarter than me that I didn't even know. So >> yeah. And like that's like part of the imposter syndrome is there's always some more black hoodie upwearing person in front of a terminal screen who just will be better than you. Like even not even in school like on your team or at your company. there's going to be one person who's just a tech god because the more time you spend in tech and different like niches of tech like you just get to know something like so specific and like when you work for a company that maybe has like a couple products or even Microsoft that has like a billion million things like there's people who just know the codebase so well that like their knowledge seems like unachievable for an outsider, right? So there's always someone to compare yourself and you you're always going to be behind. That's just the reality of it. Like you won't know the nuances as much and as the person who who built the code base. And I think because there's just such a it's like a very ripe opportunity for comparison against like someone who knows better. >> That's that's really interesting. Right. So the couple different dynamics that that play into this at least. Right. And the couple that you touched on, one in particular is like, and this isn't the end- all beall, but um if you're if you're not kind of fitting in to what this the standard, you know, typical straight white male type of thing, that's not like I know to your point that's not the entire, you know, story here, but the fact that if you're not I don't want to say I don't want to use the phrase fitting in because that's not the goal. If you're not kind of uh statistically matching what is in place, you already start to feel a little bit removed, right? So, you're already a little a little bit removed, a little bit of an outsider, even if it's not something that you're like, you know, consciously acknowledging, like that's that's present. It's like it's just there and it's the reality. Um, not that I'm not trying to say that's good or whatever, but that's part of it. And then the other part you were saying which I think is really interesting not that the other part's not but um when you have opportunities for comparison and as you were walking through that example like something that was coming to mind for me was like okay all of us have skills that we're developing and think back to a T-shaped developer right if you are working in a particular area you will gain expertise but when we think about a T there's There's a one point on the tea that has all of the height. And of course, it's a bit of an exaggeration to say only one spot, but truly if you spend a lot of time in one area, you become an expert. And the more time you spend, the more expertise. Now, that's like one thing that you become an expert in. So if you go looking at anyone else with any skill, suddenly you're behind them because the depth of their tea in some other area is way greater than yours in something else. So you have so many opportunities where all these other people are just experts at things that you're not. >> And that's kind of >> that's kind of interesting because to your point, so many opportunities for comparison. >> Exactly. Yeah. And I really think that's kind of like imposttor syndrome gremlin's favorite little breeding ground, you know, to like terrorize you in your little head. >> Yeah, that's so on top of that. Um something that I was thinking about because this has come up before the comparison part I think is like that's super helpful to acknowledge. Um do you think the fact that like software engineering itself is I I mean predominantly people view it as like it's a very intellectual field like probably if you don't consider yourself some type of intellectual you're probably not really into software engineering but um you know not to say the other fields aren't intellectual but do you think that that plays a role like if >> um I want to take something completely different say like >> sports or something >> you know if do you think that something like imposttor syndrome would be as prevalent in sports that's more physical versus software engineering that's like a lot more I don't know um more knowledge based like do you think that that plays a role at all >> I think so because like we can transfer that T-shaped knowledge um to sports as well like if you look at hockey, which um I don't want to particularly look at right now because the Leafs just did terrible and broke a lot of hearts recently. >> You should have You should have known. >> I The problem is believing in them every time. Um that's neither here nor there. There's always going to be someone who put more hours into their slapshot. There's always going to be someone who had um more ice time, can skate faster, can um go for longer shifts, can save the goals. You can't I think where there's opportunity for comparison, there's opportunity for imposttor syndrome. Additionally, with sports, like we can move away from hockey, but just like there's everyone's like different little athletic abilities they can't control. Like um I used to play basketball until I stopped growing at 5 foot five and then I couldn't play basketballs anymore. >> Same. And except I stopped growing at 5'4 and it's been it's been hell my entire life. >> Yeah, that that'll end a basketball career for sure. >> Yeah. They they said, "I'm sorry, you're not going to be Michael Jordan." And I had to hang up the shoes and the basketball shorts. And I said, "Screw it. I'm going to be a software engineer." That's the the next thing I can be. >> Yeah, exactly. But like I'm sure I'm sure there's like areas to compare and doubt. Even as I was the team's best benchwarmer, there were still other benchwarmers who were pretty good at cheering as like not as good as me. But, you know, um it maybe they got more court time and I was like, "Oh, wow. Maybe I I'm just here for the team spirit. Maybe I don't belong on the team and they're just having me sit on this bench because I'm like really peppy." Um, >> so you you find like genuinely like the more like the more opportunity for comparison that ends up being the thing that drives imposter syndrome the most. And this is more of an opinion thing. I don't unless you have stats. Is that kind of like what your perspective is on it? >> Absolutely. I think I had like numbers and like hard evidence eras ago. Um but I I do have some fun facts that I can bring out. So >> um >> when you have less peers to compare yourself to, you feel imposttor syndrome more. Um, so that's a really interesting thing because there's going to be less sports ball players um at as you get like higher and higher in the sports ball ranks and leagues and whatever sports words there are. Um, and so too there are like a lot fewer developers um, in general um, and especially in your sort of area of tech. Um, so the pool of comparison gets smaller and smaller and smaller. I don't know if accountants necessarily compare themselves like I'm sure there's imposter syndrome in accountant life and um, but I I wonder just are they going to feel the need to compare themselves? Do they have a bigger pool? Like if you're working at a a big public tax firm, like I'm sure there's lots of examples of people who are doing better than you, but probably people doing worse too. I think it's easier to find a middle ground and therefore feel um less like an impostor. >> But tech companies unless it's like you working at Microsoft >> and again Microsoft is like it's like the NHL pro league kind of thing, you know, where you have to compare yourself against a bunch of top dogs. So still like you're um comparing yourself against um higher creme de la creme of people. So that could heighten sense of imposter syndrome. But like me at a small little company like there's few people to compare myself to. I think it would be easier to feel imposter syndrome if I didn't actively fight it. >> Interesting. And so I want to touch on this point a little bit because it brings me back to the comment I mentioned earlier that came in from the internet that was leaders, you know, a real leader wouldn't feel imposter syndrome. And this person went on to say that they they're like some CEOs aren't even leaders. And I'm like, okay, sure. Like you can I mean leader is up for discussion about what that means. But what you had said was the sort of the fewer peers you have like so if you're getting promoted and getting into like a higher part in your career, you will have fewer peers by definition, right? Like not everyone is going to be the CEO of a company. >> Absolutely. >> It just doesn't work. Um maybe it does, but I think it's impractical. yourself. Um the the higher up you go, the fewer comparisons you have to make. So almost by definition, the more uh the more su I think this is a stat that you probably have, but like the more successful you are, the more likely it is that you continue to experience imposter syndrome. Is that correct? >> Oh yeah, I have a whole little slide about that in my little slideshow. I go I can I go on and on about it. Uh yeah, exactly. There's less people to compare yourself to. Hashtag is only at the top. And the people you can compare yourself to are also super successful. Um and there's also a higher chance that you will feel alienated in some way cuz there's fewer people so there might be fewer people like you. And that alienation uh as we kind of touched on also can contribute to imposter syndrome because you just wonder do I even deserve to be at the chief table anyway. >> That's really interesting. I'm I'm going to I'm going to share something I don't think I've said out loud and this is going to be on the internet. So I think I've told a couple of people this in different conversations like kind of in not quite in passing because this has to come up in a in a relevant point but um I want to bring up the whole like you know you you made a joke you went to the University of Waterl though right so like you you must be smart to be there. So the the thing that I want to share is like when I reflect to my classmates or even some of the people I live with in university um like I look at what some people have done and I go man like did I blow my career? Like did I I don't want to say that I mess up my life because that's like I'm I'm happily married. It's not fair to say that strictly on the career side of things. I go like it's almost like where did I go wrong? Because what like one of my roommates, his name's Steven Lake, uh he founded Thalmic Labs, it was later turned into North that later Google bought. So I'm like I had a roommate >> that was extremely successful. I'm like I didn't get to do that. And then I had classmates there's a whole bunch of my classmates that have went they moved out to the Bay Area, you know, they ended up starting companies after working at other startups and like they're on like their second company now. And I'm like, I didn't do that. And I start to reflect and I'm like, did I did I mess up my my life path with my career? Like I I feel like in comparison, this is the key word, in comparison. I'm like, man, like I failed at this. Like they're they're doing this stuff that I wish I could have done. Like I didn't get to do the cool thing. And yeah, it comes back to a comparison. And it feels it feels bad. And then it's like now take that comparison, park it, put it over here. And if I go, hey, if I look at my if I just look at my career and the stuff that I've done in my life, I'm like, I'm pretty proud. Like, I'm very happy. So, >> as you should be, >> but this is the thing. So, you bring in the comparison and it's like, oh my god, my I'm stupid for everything I've done. But if you put that away, I'm like, I feel pretty good. So, I wanted to share that because it's a in my opinion an example of just how self- sabotaging like the the comparison can be. >> Oh, absolutely. Self-sabotage, if I could say it, self sabotaging is just like the perfect word to describe it, you know? Like I think about it too like some of my peers like I didn't graduate um at the same time as my peers. I stayed on for an extra semester so that um I could take less courses throughout the year cuz my final year of classes was during COVID and all that and I just I couldn't handle the online school. And so I started off my career feeling behind >> and sometimes I still feel that way. But then I look at myself and I think I am where Julia of 2 3 4 years ago. I'm living her dream. I have a cute little place with my boyfriend and my dog and I get to play video games on weekends instead of doing assignments. Like this is what I ate my vegetables. Like this is what the years of hard computer school was for. Like this is it. And sure like I didn't like start my career off or as early as some of my peers. I didn't start as you know as renowned of a company as some of my peers. But I am so happy. You got to take this the comparison away. It is truly the thief of joy. >> Yeah, that well and thank you for sharing. So, this brings me to maybe another and I don't want to steer this too much. So, by all means, like if you're like, Nick, shut up. I want to talk about something else related to imposter syndrome, feel free. But based on the fact that we just shared two little bits of sort of like imposttor syndrome or self-comparisons. Um one thing that I I want to talk a little bit about when you came to us after going to this conference and I I your your task was hey teach us whatever you learn and come back and present to us. Um, I think one of the takeaways that I had that I've tried to reuse was when people share their experience with imposttor syndrome, it does not cure your imposttor syndrome, but it helps lift some of the weight because we walk around feeling this imposter syndrome like man like do I really belong here? Like am I actually good enough? And then you hear other people talk about it, whether it's a peer and I feel like sometimes more impactful when it's someone you look up to and you go, "Holy crap, like they feel imposter syndrome." Like maybe it's not it's not so bad. Like I mean it doesn't fix it, but what are your thoughts on different ways that people can >> I don't I don't want to say cure it, fix it, but like help live with it, improve their relationship with imposter syndrome. Well, group lamenting like we just did, like getting it off our chests. I I think that truly is like really impactful like especially um with your co-workers or the people, classmates, just people who are in a simil similar situation as you. But there's and you know, not I I I can't say to stop comparing yourself to others because that's impossible. But, you know, remembering, hey, let's take a step back, like, let's reflect on like how I think my life has gone, not how much worse I've done to others or worse words, not how much worse I've done than others. Um, >> yeah, >> all that fun stuff. Um, but yeah, like just like celebrating your success and what you've gotten to, like regardless of what others have gotten to, like that's the important stuff. It's just like go it it's like the philosophy of gratitude just like going back and I don't want to go too woo but really just like channeling your stress into empathy for yourself and for others and using your experience and your knowledge about imposter syndrome to build a better community for yourself and for others. Well, so that to me that makes a lot of sense. And you you hinted at you said like if I wasn't this would be a lot worse for me if I wasn't actively fighting imposter syndrome. Like you were saying this about where you're working. So like what what is it that you do for yourself where like you know do you have like if we're talking about tangible or actionable things that people can go do. Are there things that you you regularly practice or you periodically like when you're experiencing it more you have to go oh like that's a good reminder like that's when it triggers the hey like let me have a moment for like thinking about some gratitude like do you have some like actionable things that you might recommend people try because my my suspicion and I'm totally speculating here is that for some people watching this some people might have been like oh imposter syndrome like I don't really know if that's a real thing maybe They're going, "Hey, wait, maybe maybe that is a thing I'm experiencing and having an oh crap moment where they go, okay, now how do I fix it?" Like I I have the disease. How do I fix the imposttor syndrome? Like any any practical actionable things that they can go try? What I try to do for myself and I don't know if this will work for others you know it's not like a one sizefits-all but when for example I receive a code review from a senior developer who has just like so much more knowledge than me and it's just like knowledge jumping um typically I would feel really bad about myself that is my first gut reaction and I just like recognizing that is the first step to dealing with it cuz I could have sad girl hours um about that or I could remember, hey Julia, this is an opportunity for learning be like I just have to remember to be so grateful that this person is really taking the time to help me improve my code and they just want me to get better and they're helping me get better. If I refraraming it sort of really helps me. Um again it's all mental and it's like a it's about comparison. So, if I just I find if I think about it differently and I can like catch myself in the moment, that's really helpful. But if it's more of like an overlying feeling, if I haven't caught it in time, um then really just talking about it with people I trust like you right now, um can really help sort of get down to a manageable baseline cuz there's just something so freeing about just talking about how we experience imposter syndrome and hearing that other people do too. >> Yeah. A bunch of bunch of good things, right? I think the very first one that it seems like maybe it's obvious, but I don't think it's obvious until you say it out loud. It's like recognizing it, right? Because if I think this is the case for a lot of things, but if you're not taking the opportunity to recognize it as it's starting to kick in, like if you're having certain situations that trigger it, you might find that you're like, you go throughout your day and you're like, "Yeah, it's really bad today." today or you're having a week and you're like, man, my imposter syndic code reviews when I have people doing this knowledge dump and it's someone that you you look at it and you're like, "Wow, they're brilliant." You you might go, "Hey, that that's a thing that I'm realizing. it's making me feel like second guessing myself like why am I not that smart right like you start to doubt you start to compare so having that first step of acknowledging can be a pretty powerful moment it doesn't fix it but you go oh like I can at least understand why I'm feeling this way or maybe not why but at least that it's happening because of this trigger I think that's a really good first step um the You said a couple of other things and I I kind of I got stuck to that one a little bit too long because I like to ramble, but um you we talked about comparison. I wanted to use that as a trigger point. I was just telling someone earlier today like they were asking me about blanking on things and I was like, "Oh, like it doesn't happen that often and it's happening right now." So, um but okay, one other thing you said for sure was really about being able to talk about it. So, I didn't totally blank. It was was getting it primed. Oh yeah. >> Um, but being able to talk about it can be powerful, I think, for two reasons at least. One of them is that you you are potentially helping someone else kind of navigate it. And the second part, I don't know how to explain this, but um you you said like it kind of feels freeing, right? Like it's almost like you're keeping it a secret. I don't I don't know if that's the right way to put it, but like you're having this feeling. It feels like you don't want other people to know, but when you say it, you're kind of like, "Wow." Like that that feels good. Like it feels good to not have to hold that in. And I don't know if that's too woo woo, but like that's how I feel about it. >> No, I I really liked your point in that we're keeping it a secret by keeping it followed up because it is taboo, right? You don't want to admit like oh like I get really huge feelings of selfdoubt when I have a lot of comments on my code review like >> I start to wonder if I >> oh my god I don't write perfect code the first time. >> Yeah. Yeah. And like I think you were kind of saying this earlier too, right? Like this can look different for everyone. So having that acknowledgement about the triggers can look very different. Maybe someone else watching or listening to this, they're like, "That doesn't happen to me on code reviews." And it's like, "Okay, yeah, tell me about the last design document you put out and people grilled." And you're like, "Oh, like >> yeah, >> that last presentation you gave, right? Oh yeah, I bet that was perfect." And then all of a sudden it's like, wait, you're thinking through watching someone else do a presentation and it was so good. Like is mine that good? Oh no. Like there's going to be different triggers for people's imposter syndrome. So, >> oh yeah, sitting in a demo, watching other people demo their work and thinking, "Oh my god, they're so smart. How do they even think of that solution? Holy >> Why? How can they even present it that well?" Right? Like, >> yeah, >> like, do they practice? Like, where's their They're not even using a script. How can they just go through it? Like, >> it's not video. They're typing into their terminal. >> It's a live demo and it's not crashing. They must be a god. Um, no, that that's uh that's cool. I I wanted to to pause for a second and say like something like as a takeaway for me, something that you said earlier that I don't want to say like I hadn't thought about it before, but I just never really latched on to maybe how how critical this is is like the comparison part. Um, I recognize that imposter syndrome has a comparison element. like that's a lot of what's what's happening. But as we were chatting through it, it's like I I liked your analogy about going over to the sportsing world where we're talking about sports and other sports terms. But >> yeah, >> being able to say like, hey, like if you're in a situation where you have opportunities for comparison, >> that really is the breeding ground. Now, how much comparison or how intense or severe like there's a bunch of different factors that can come into play, but that's like ultimately one of the core things that kind of breeds imposter syndrome. So, I really liked you sharing that. >> Thank you. I really have loved talking about this with you. It's funny. I've talked about it a lot of different times, but I don't think I've had a more productive conversation. like I feel like I'm learning things and like putting connections together I never thought of. So this has been like so great. >> Awesome. I will uh I know it's been a while. I had you speak at Microsoft as an external speaker and people loved that conversation. They thought that was great. So I uh I might bother you again to try doing a presentation on it because I I think you like I said people really loved it. But um uh Julia, I I know that you were telling me the other day that like social media is a thing you're kind of removing yourself from, but I like to make sure I can ask people that are on and and you know, kind of sharing their perspective and stuff. Do you want anyone to get in touch with you or are there are there places where like you're like, "Hey, I might be speaking at something or involved with something that you want people to to be able to have awareness of." And it's okay to say no. I just want to make sure you have an opportunity. >> Thank you. I'd say um proceed with caution. Uh but probably LinkedIn is the most likely place you'll find me. >> Would you like me include >> Would you like me to include a link that I can put with the video or do you want me to omit that? >> No, that'll be fine. >> Okay. >> Just I just want to make sure a timely response. I think when you messaged me about this two, three months ago. >> No, that's that's cool. I'll I'll make sure to do that then. But um I wanted to say thank you so much. Um I I mean it genuinely when I say last night when I was talking about this, I was like I was getting excited and having to be like, "Okay, settle down. You haven't had the conversation yet." So um I just think it's it's so important for people to to have awareness of because it's so easy to keep pushing away and being like either denying that it's a real thing or just kind of living with it and being like I guess life sucks. But like it's not that there's a cure for it. It's not that you can just snap your fingers and it goes away. But I think the more things that you can try in action make it better. >> I totally agree, Nick. I couldn't have put it better myself. >> I think you probably could have. I bet you could have, but >> it would have been more wordy and less less concise. >> Oh, I've been I was I was practicing that one a little bit, but no, Julia, thank you so much. Um, I really appreciate the time and I will try to make sure that I don't just keep bothering you to talk about imposter syndrome. I'll have to pick your brain about some other things in software engineering too. So, thank you very much. >> Thanks, Nick.