Crucial Coachability Lessons In Software Engineering - Interview With Noah Cantor

Hi, my name is Nick Cosantino and I'm a principal software engineering manager at Microsoft. In this video interview, I got to sit down with Noah Cantor who is a tech leadership coach. Noah coaches both executives and other levels of tech leaders. And I thought this conversation was very enlightening to hear about his process. We got to chat through some of his philosophies when it comes to leadership in tech, as well as some of the process that he uses with his clients. I definitely had a few aha moments in our conversation, and I think that you're really going to enjoy it. So sit back and let me know in the comments if you enjoy this kind of thing. Thanks and I'll see you next time. >> Noah, if you don't mind, if you want to give us a little bit of background for, you know, as early as you'd like for where you started and how you got to where you are today. >> Okay, I'll give you the kind of the the short version. It still covers kind of 20 years, but it's >> it's it's still short. So when I was uh when I was 18, when I was 16, I had a huge influence by the media talking about how teenage boys don't really care about other people. >> Okay? >> And at the time, I wanted to be a psychologist. Like I really wanted to help people. But that media message over the next two years kind of convinced me that I didn't like people very much. And I allowed it to convince myself. >> Interesting. >> And then I got into it and I started working on a service desk. I don't know if you've ever worked on a service desk, but I spent three months doing it and it convinced me I was right. Before we move on, this is just a reminder that I do have courses available on dome train if you want to level up in your C programming. If you head over to do train, you can see that I have a course bundle that has my getting started and deep dive courses on C. Between the two of these, that's 11 hours of programming in the C language, taking you from absolutely no programming experience to being able to build basic applications. You'll learn everything about variables, loops, a bit of async programming and object-oriented programming as well. Make sure to check it out. >> And so I spent the next 10 years working as far away from people as I could. I I moved in from the service desk to Windows administration, then I moved to Linux administration, then I moved to networks and security. And I kind of as eventually anything that had an electric current running through it I would be responsible for. >> Cool. >> And then I one day I looked around and I realized I'm solving technical problems but nothing is getting better. What's what's going on? And so that was kind of when I started working in management and did a bad job of it. Be perfectly honest. My first management job did not go well. Um, and it was only really two very lucky conversations that I had that changed that. >> Okay. >> So, I was I was at a pub with a bunch of people who were leaving the company I was at and ran into someone that I used to work with and he introduced me. We were talking about something and he introduced me to uh human motivation. I must have been talking about problems I was having with the team or something. >> Sure. >> And he asked me, "Have I have you ever read the book Drive?" And I said, >> "No, I've never heard of it." And he said, "You should read it. It sounds like you should read it." >> And okay, >> we talked a little bit about more about motivation and intrinsic versus exttrinsic motivation. And then we parted company and I thought no more of it. >> And two days later, the book showed up on my desk. Like he bought me a copy of it. >> No way. Okay. >> And had it shipped to my work because he thought it was so important that I understand this stuff that he would pay for me to do it. And I thought, well, if that's his level of commitment, he's I'll read it. And >> absolutely. Yeah. >> And he was right. And I read it. And what I learned mostly was that the reason I was failing at management was because I didn't really understand how people worked. >> Okay. >> So that started that part of the journey. I had a second conversation with somebody else, same company, very similar time frame where he introduced me to the concepts of kind of interdependency. And so we know about it in software context, but I grew up in San Francisco in the US where the the constant message is always the individual is responsible for their circumstances. >> Okay? >> If things aren't working, it's their fault. >> And what he introduced me to was the ideas behind systems thinking and the the idea that we can all only do the best we can in the context we have. It's not an absolute. And so our options are constrained by what we do. like our options are constrained by the the circumstances we're in, which seems obvious to a lot of people, but it absolutely wasn't to me. Um, and that was that was the goal that he introduced me to. And I read that and those two books combined, I was like, wow, this is this is new. This is fascinating, >> right? >> And I was like, I want more. And so I went I went and I read everything I could about the goal. And then I read everything I could about systems thinking. And I read everything I could about motivation and psychology and rewards and punishment and just completely changed the way I saw the world, which was both eye opening and a problem. >> Okay. And my friend had warned me before he gave me the goal. He said, "Make sure you want to see this because once you see it, you can't unsee it." >> Okay. >> And he was right because all of a sudden I could see the dynamics at play in everybody's interactions. ah >> but nobody else could, >> right? >> And so it suddenly feels like you've woken up and you've got this really great idea about how everything works and nobody wants to hear it. So I then decided actually I'm going to figure out how to take this and I'm going to apply it to companies. I'm going to help them figure out how to improve themselves. >> Okay. >> And so I moved into consulting. I spent the next 15 years kind of working with organizations in organizational change using my tech background to work with CTO's IT directors software and like engineering managers and help them understand what does better look like where are you now what's holding you back and kind of helping them understand the roots of their problems and then fix it and so for 15 years I did this and eventually I got a little bit tired of that and I stopped and I reflected on why that was happening and the over like the pattern was really interesting. So I developed a program that worked really well sometimes. >> Okay. >> And I looked at why I was like why doesn't it work all the time and I looked at it and it turned out the reason it didn't work all the time had nothing to do with the program because it was always the same. The reason it didn't work was because in places where it worked the execs who had hired me were coachable. They would ask questions. They would let me challenge them. They would be introspective. They would think and they would change their behavior in addition to trying to change every like the behavior of the rest of the organization. >> Okay. >> And in places where it didn't work, they weren't. So coachable organizations, massive success. Uncoachable, absolutely no impact whatsoever. >> Interesting. Why why would uh and I don't know if you've kind of done this part of the reflection or maybe you have an answer for this, but in those situations where you'd have execs that would that would hire you as a consultant if they like were they kind of just doing it because they were told to do it or to check a box like that was some feedback and they're like I guess we better bring this person on because if they weren't I feel like if they weren't coachable why would they make a decision like that in the first place? >> Well at see at that point I was mostly a consultant right and you don't hire consultants to change you. You hire consultants to change other people. >> Okay. >> So, they had a different expectation, I suppose, like we're gonna hire this person, he's going to change everyone else, and I'm going to sit back and >> I'm going to watch and it's going to be awesome. >> And and I'm going to get the the glory or the accolades for successfully introducing change to those people over there. >> Okay, I can see the the challenge. And so what I eventually got tired of kind of trying to climb that ladder from you hired me to fix people over here and I have to help you see that you contribute to that problem because the truth is we all contribute to the problems that we experience. >> And after talking it over with friends and talking it over with people that I had coached kind of as part of this journey, they all told me the coaching is really valuable. You should just do that. And so that was when I kind of put the consulting aside. It was very lucrative, but at this point I not very rewarding most of the time. And I focused on the bits where I could help people have light bulb moments. I could help them kind of realize that the way they saw themselves and the way they thought of themselves impacted the way they interacted with other people. And so it impacted the way that it impacted their impacted their organizations and their teams. And it was like it was such a game changer. Like for me it's that light bulb moment that's really magical. >> And I went from the occasional one as a consultant to having them with just about every person I work with. Now >> I was just thinking as you were explaining that I imagine like that that feeling of like being fulfilled and rewarded like probably went from being I don't want to say sporadic because I don't think that's necessarily fair to say. I don't know statistically how often it happened, but uh from something that was not every time to something that almost felt like you were almost guaranteed to have that when you brought someone on to be able to coach them like it's it's specifically for that reason. Back to my earlier question, it's like these people were expecting that they are going to be getting coached. So >> yeah, and so now they're prefiltered based on their desire to already change and do things differently, >> right? >> And so they're already ready to change. they're already happy to be introspective and that that makes all the difference in the world. >> Yeah, that's that's super interesting. I I Yeah, it's kind of funny to think that like that some people are like sitting there basically being like, I'm going to hire this person to change the others. But like when I say it's funny, like I'm thinking about it, I'm like, yeah, I could I could absolutely see that in many cases, right? Like people uh and I don't want to say it's cuz these are bad people or something. They're they're probably thinking that they're doing the right thing, right? like I'm going to bring this person on. There is going to be positive change. Uh and >> they don't they don't realize that like they are also contributing to it. It's a sort of like a lack of awareness. >> And I I think that's that's the key bit is that they don't they're not they're not aware of it. And it and in many ways they're not willing to be made aware of it >> because they think and in fact their career has told them you're doing great just keep doing what you're doing. >> So >> they must not be the problem. Right. >> Yeah. You don't get promoted to CTO if you're the problem, right? That would have stopped your promotion at some point before you reached kind of the pinnacle of the tech landscape, >> right? >> And so, yeah, it's I think it takes an a really interesting leader and a really interesting perspective to get to that point and say, I need help. I'm used to having all the answers. I'm used to knowing what to do or be able to figure out what to do by going off to the internet and doing some searching, but I can't do this now. I need some help. >> Yeah, definitely. It's uh Yeah, you have to really have that introspection to be able to identify that. Um yeah, that's uh that's definitely something. So, I I'm curious. I have a couple questions from your story. Um, and one that I wanted to ask, uh, well, I guess before I ask it, I wanted to say I think it's super cool that you almost did like a full circle, uh, you know, wanting to go into like psychology and understand these things to being like, no, no, no. And then eventually kind of came back to it and you're like, yeah, this is where it's at. So that's awesome. >> Yeah, it the journey hasn't been lost on me. I maybe could have saved myself some time by Sure. >> by paying more attention to what I wanted and less attention to what, you know, other people were telling me, >> right? Yeah. No, that's that's awesome, though, that it that it did kind of come full circle like that. So, uh, as you were saying and I was like that was a feel-good moment that I kind of heard. So, I thought that was really cool. But, uh, something that you had, so you had mentioned kind of a earlier in your career and then going into like a position where you were managing. I was just curious like um I feel like for a lot of people there's a couple of uh paths that generally happen like to go into management and uh one way that I see that's pretty common is like someone is uh you know technical individual contributor and it's like hey the path to promotion is you're a manager now and then it just happens and then you're like I don't know what I'm doing but I guess I have to manage people. I feel like that's a that's one of the most common ways. I think there's other varieties of that happening, but a lot of the time I think those paths are essentially like here's no training and now go manage, go lead people. And I was curious like was this something that you were looking for? Did it kind of happen on its own? Like what did what did that transition look like? >> So it's kind of a mix. It does largely reflect what you're talking about. So it was I was the most like technically capable person in my arena at the company. I was at and we had a client and the client wanted someone who could uh provide a face to them that they could complain to when things didn't work. And so I became that person and as part of that I was I was looking after two other people. So it's kind of an informal leadership role. Um and then I but then in order to progress farther than that I had to go into management because there were no kind of principal or staff level roles like 15 how a long time ago they didn't exist and so it was management or stay where I was for the rest of my career. Um so I moved into management despite kind of my misgivings. When I did it I changed companies. So, and the company that I went to was very different from where I started. >> Okay. >> I I started at an organization or the previous company that I'd been at was very kind of traditional. Uh you can't trust developers. You can't you have to test what they write because if you don't, you're going to put rubbish into production. You can't let them have access to uh production systems because they can't be trusted not to mess things up in their attempts to fix things. like you have to have bug database like hugely pjorative views of developers and in many ways not unwarranted in development at that time and with certain sets of people >> and I went to this new organization and there's no bug database >> there's um there's no one stopping developers from accessing production directly there's like they support their own systems like all of the things that I thought I knew about the natural order were wrong >> and so I went into management and I confronted that at the same time I used to come home to my wife and I'd say this is by far the most difficult job I've ever done in my life and if I survive it it's going to be great. >> Yeah, that's uh that's super awesome framing. I'm not sure I'm going to. >> Well, and I think for a lot of people like I think uh so after you've explained that right, you're kind of saying I want to progress in my career and I don't I think there's still a lot of places that unfortunately they don't have like uh you know further IC paths that are more advanced and they they still kind of force people into a management position which I don't I don't think is good. I think that a lot more companies are kind of more aware that they truly are different skill sets. But uh for you know for people that are listening or watching they might you might not know that and I just kind of wanted to talk about this very brief very briefly. I can't even speak. Um very briefly because I think for some people that are considering it they're like hey like I think that I do want that. you should be asking yourself like do you want that because it's an interest or do you want that because you see it as the only way for promotion because the reality is that they are very different skill sets and I know people will talk about like you want to have really technical engineering managers like that's like the most important thing but at the end of the day I think that if your engineering manager is not or a manager in general is not able to understand people like that is their primary function and role and when you don't have those skill sets or you're not interested in that. It's going to make your life very difficult as a manager because it's all going to feel like friction like I don't know what I'm doing. Why are people difficult to work with? Why am I trying to solve these types of problems? Or you're just avoiding them all together and it's like it's just not a good not a good setup for anyone >> and it happens like every time, right? So you move from contributor to manager and all of a sudden you're no longer supposed to be the person that knows everything, >> right? You're the person who has to enable other people to know everything and do great work. >> And then you get promoted again and you're no longer doing that. Your job now is to enable groups of people who enable others to be successful. And so facilitation, coordination, communication, like all of that become important and then you move to the next level and you're suddenly in the sea suite and you're like okay well now my job is to take what's happening in technology and translate it into business terminology. so everyone else can understand what's happening and take what's happening in the business like in the rest of the business and translate it so that tech can understand it. >> So I have to be this bridge and I also have to think strategically what are we trying to achieve and how do I turn that into technological decisions >> right >> and so every single promotion is it might as well be a completely different job. Yeah, that's a that's a really interesting way to put it and I think for myself like if I as you were saying that I was reflecting yeah like I can remember I went into management quite early like kind kind of accidental like it was a startup they were like we don't have managers we need people to lead the teams like you can talk to developers do this and sure I don't know what I'm doing um but it was a startup and I had nothing else like other commitment so I was still coding and stuff so I just basically worked like two jobs and that was the way to do it um so reflecting on it I'm like yeah it took me a long time to to have that realization. But towards the end of my time at this company before Microsoft, I was reaching a point where I especially just cuz I had been there for a long time reaching a point where I was starting to enable other teams to be more effective. So I have not moved into a director position at Microsoft. Um so or like we call them like group engineering managers I guess would be uh the the manager of managers. So I've not done that at Microsoft. I feel like right before I left this other company, Magnet Forensics, they were kind of shaping up director roles, but because I was a technical manager, they didn't quite have that like framed up yet, like what was that going to look like? So, I never never had like a director position. But thinking through it, I think you're totally right that that would be yet another change of like, you know, how are you going to enable these groups of people that have managers to start, you know, being effective and uh yeah, just uh it's not that this in that case there's still going to be an overlap of skills and things like that, but I think that your goals and the things you need to focus on are going to be different. >> Yeah. Yeah. And actually just that reminded me that some a lot of the time the the CTO's that I work with, they're very they're often worried that the fact that they're no longer hands-on technical is going to cost them when it comes to relationships with their staff, >> right? >> Like I I don't code anymore. Are the senior coders going to respect my views? >> Um or I came into this role from an infrastructure viewpoint. Are people who don't have an infrastructure background going to respect the views that I've got? And that you have to be able to answer that question as a yes for yourself because as you get more senior, there's going to be more and more people under you whose jobs you don't like grasp to the degree that you once grasp the role that you did. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> Like there's absolutely no escaping it. And so coming to terms with that with the with the idea that your job is no longer technical, super hard. >> Well, I'm on that note. So yeah, I totally agree with that. I have I've heard and read some things online about, you know, and I already mentioned this very briefly in our conversation, but this idea that like everyone especially like for software engineering managers, the expectation seems to be that they must be super technical and as you're saying like the more sort of you grow in in that uh career path truly like the opportunity to be hands-on is just less and less because just it's not part of what your role is. So, I'm curious when you're, you know, working with people and coaching them on around these types of concepts, like um can you maybe highlight some things that you try to to make clear to them and how they might navigate like, hey, look, like it's not that you shouldn't know anything technical, but like you're not going to be the one typing the lines of code anymore or like what does that look like? >> So, the probably the way I usually approach that is that I talk to them about just kind of what are the responsibilities that you have now? just just list them for me, right? All the things that you have to get done in your area. So now, how many of those things is it reasonable to expect a single person to do? >> Okay. >> Okay. So now you've you've they recognize that actually they can't do them all. >> Sure. >> Because literally can't do them all. Which of those are the ones that resonate most with you? >> Now, how are you going to fill in the gaps? Because actually being an being an executive of any kind isn't about knowing all the answers. It's not about being the same as every other executive. It's about being able to do the the small core part of the job and hire people to fill the gaps where you have them. So again, we're back to self-awareness. We're talking about what do you know about yourself and therefore who should you hire? is I work with uh I just finished working with a uh a people focused VP of engineering. >> Okay. >> Who had a very technical CTO and one of their concerns was they're technical and I'm not. >> Is that going to be a problem? >> Right. >> And so we we talked it through and we kind of helped them recognize that actually you got hired because they're not technical. you got the job because you do people and they struggle in that space and they're good with tech and they're happy to be there. And so that worked really well for them. And then when they get promoted to CTO somewhere else, then they'll turn around and they'll be able to say, "Okay, I know my gaps, right? I'm very good with people. I understand technology, but I'm not hands-on with technology. So, I need a more technical VP of engineering." >> Sure. And so it's just recognizing where you're good and where you're not that makes that really helps. >> Yeah, I think that that framing is definitely helpful, right? And I think guiding people through that so they can do the introspection and understand that for themselves is is important because they might they might be seeing all the things going on, but I think as you said it like is it realistic for one person to do all these things? It's kind of like yeah no until you kind of look at it that way, right? So, um, have you when you when you chat with these people, this this idea that I've heard come up a lot is like again like if if you're not technical, the people that report to you, um, like what's that relationship going to look like? because all of a sudden now like are people not going to they're not going to trust and respect you because again the further that you're moving away from let's say coding for engineers the further you're moving away from that like now you have a team of people that they're like hey this guy doesn't even code or this woman doesn't even code and then you move two levels up from that and then like you have even less respect now from the frontline engineers writing the code like what is yeah I'm just curious like how that conversation comes up >> I think it's a trap Okay. >> And and the reason I think it's a trap is that it's not whether or not they're going to respect you for whether or not you have technical skills. It's whether or not you're going to do the work that you're good at and enable them to do the work that they're good at. >> Right. >> So, if you're not hands-on technical anymore and you're trying to make technical decisions, your team's going to struggle to respect that. >> Yeah. Okay. Um, but if you're and if you're bad with people and you're trying to figure out how to build like a framework for people and how to do discipline and how to do promotions, your team's going to struggle to respect that. It's less about it's less about any absolute things that you do and more about are you playing to your strengths? Are you treating people the way that they need to be treated? And so, are you giving them the opportunity to shine and not accidentally stealing it by thinking you're better than you are anymore? >> Right. That's uh No, that's super interesting. I really like that. Um I've I've shared with people that uh when they talk about this type of thing and they're they're very much on the side of the fence where they say, "Hey, look, if your your manager is not technical, like that's the worst thing that could happen. Like, you need to have a technical manager." Um, I think that people can have their own opinions about things for sure, but I like to I like to share that one of the absolute best leaders I've ever worked for. Uh, he did have an engineering background, but not in software at all. And self-proclaimed, like I don't know anything about code, and that's cool. But what I found worked so well for us was that he had a like his background was in product. So, he understood like he could get into the domain that we were working in. if you're talking lines of code, you're talking about how you're going to build object hierarchies and these different systems are going to connect. He's like, I don't need to know. I don't care. But, um, what he could do super well, and I I think this is the thing that stands out for me is that we could communicate very well together. So, he under like kind of like you're saying, he understood where his strengths and weaknesses were. So, if you were talking to him, if he didn't get it, he would make it very clear like, hey, like uh can you frame it some other way? and then we would just get on the same level. And I always felt that the really the thing that matters most is just being able to communicate at these different levels effectively. So, uh I had leaders that I've worked with where I'm talking to them about things that I'm like, I think at this level they should get it. And I have literally watched people start to like have their eyes gloss over and they're like trying not to fall asleep and stuff and I go, oh, like definitely it's not working. I got to I got to find a different way to explain this or you know, it's just it's just not working. Um, and I've had, you know, leaders like this where they'll let me know and they'll come at it from a different angle and it just works super well. So, um, I think it's all about that really clear communication so that you're not just sitting there wasting each other's time or not aligning on things because you don't know how to talk about it together. >> Yeah. And I've worked with two two CTOs in uh obviously not the same situation but similar sort of situation, non-technical background, looking after a technical team. uh and in their cases they were both worried about is the team does the team respect me when I offer you know technical opinions are they listening to me do they trust what I have to say and in both cases I talked to the people that actually reported to them and what those people had to say was in both cases for different reasons they are really really good at making people feel comfortable and safe and building teams and communicating I don't need anything else. >> Mhm. Yeah. That and that that really resonates with my experience like and again uh I don't know other people might have different experiences and that's totally fine. I'm not here to you know to get on this and say like this is the way it has to be. But at least for me when uh I I always felt when I was given autonomy, clear direction, and that people trusted me to do good work, it was like that was the most energizing thing ever. It was like like, "Yeah, you have problems for me to solve and you trust I can go do them and you'll get out of my way to let me do it and but you'll also let me know like obviously if we need to get back on track or something." Just like not micromanaging me and and still giving me these opportunities that might be a little bit bigger, a little bit scarier that help me grow. Like that was always just such a good situation to be in. And I got very lucky uh that I had those opportunities in my career. And one of the one of the key additions to that is and are they there for you >> if you need them? >> Yeah. >> Because my my experience I've had I've been on both sides of this line there's a very thin line between kind of autonomy and neglect. >> Sure. Yep. >> And so as as a leader, if you just let people go off and do whatever you want and you don't provide the support and you don't provide a space for them to ask questions, >> then they often feel kind of drift, disconnected from the work that's happening and lost. And so you think that you're giving them freedom, but really what you're giving them is a panic attack. >> Yeah. And everything they're doing, every action, they're kind of like, I hope this is okay. Like I don't know like uh Yeah. The whole time. Yeah. Not a not a good spot. >> Yeah. And it takes a particular personality to be in that spot and be like, "No, I'm good." >> Sure. Yeah. And I think, you know, uh, one of the key leadership lessons that I was taught very early, like basically right when I started managing, and I don't think I really understood it, but it just stuck with me was situational leadership. uh my my VP of HR, I guess we didn't have VPs at the time, but uh our HR leader at the time who became our VP, I just remember her saying very early on, Nick, just remember not everyone is like you and not everyone is like the other person that you're managing. So remember situational leadership. And I remember being like, obviously not everyone's like me. That's fine, whatever. But then I fall into this trap of like, yeah, they're not like each other either. So you can't just take a cookie cutter and stamp it. So, uh, with the autonomy situation, you might be like working with someone and being like, "Oh, hell yeah." Like, "Awesome. I gave them autonomy. They're flourishing." You're like, "I'm going to keep doing this. Go to the next person." And now that's the panic attack person. So, got to be careful. >> Yeah. When I was in consulting, we talked about it as meeting people where they are. >> Ah, okay. Yeah. >> You just you can't introduce change when people aren't ready for it. You can't talk about what the future of, you know, amazing software development practice could be like if people don't understand good practice now. And so if you want to help people, if if and for me that's always the goal. If you want to help people, you have to start with wherever they are. That's very interesting. Yeah. Like and especially like it'll be more relatable so that when they start taking steps, it's not like, hey, you're about to do a 180 on everything that you know and recognize. It's like, okay, like here's how you start. >> Yeah, baby steps. >> Very cool. Um, okay. I wanted to talk a little bit about uh your uh your keys to outstanding tech leadership because I think this is an interesting focus area and I know this is something that you're interested in chatting through. So, uh I don't know how you want to kick it off, but there's three keys that you have uh to talk through. Um and yeah, I do you want to kind of kick us off and and chat through that? >> So, for just for a little bit of background, >> Sure. Most of us inherit our management style from the people that have managed us. >> That makes sense. Yep. >> Most of them inherit it from the people that managed them. Like there are people outliers for the most part that figure everything out for themselves and figure out exactly what works for them. But for the most part, we're all copying a relatively similar playbook, which you can trace back to kind of the industrial era in a time when leaders thought and workers did and they were always separate and that leads to some really interesting behaviors in addition like including not treating people like people, treating them like >> parts of a machine. And we don't in it, we don't talk about that anymore as the way that we look after people, but a lot of the habits that we have still still do that. The practices assume that that's where we're coming from and that's how our business works. >> Okay? And so when I work with people, I start from a slightly different perspective of look, you've inherited all of these habits and all of these behaviors and you wouldn't be talking to me if they were working for you. So let's find out what does work for you. >> Yeah. >> And so we start by identifying what are the things that they value. Like what really matters to you as a person. Do you form deep connections with people? Do you like the power and the control? Like do you like transparency, integrity? Like there are a lot of different ways that people interact with the world and a lot of different ways that people want to behave. And most of the people that I work with have never thought about themselves that way. And so there's this internalized conflict that brings them to me where the things that the ways they want to behave and the ways that they're conditioned to behave are very different. >> Interesting. Okay. And so then we get started with okay what matters what matters to you okay if that's what matters to you what kind of relationships do you want to have with people everyone gets told you should have oneto ones okay well a onetoone for someone who likes control is very different than a onetoone for someone who likes transparency and a onetoone that's that from someone that really likes connecting with people like >> sure >> they may they may all fit under the banner of onetoone but they're all very different and so we want to think about how do you approach looking after people in a way that works for you. >> That makes sense. Yeah. Because I think the even if you take the example of like someone who they might like the control just as an example, right? If you're okay, so if we agree that having one-on-one conversations with uh our reports is important to make sure that we can have that type of relationship, take care of career growth and all these other things. If if people acknowledge across the board, that's a thing we want to do. But you take a style that's like I I like having control and it's like something that uh is motivating for me or something I like to focus on. All of a sudden, you go, okay, you're going to put them into a one-on-one conversation and if that's their focus and their intent the entire time, I think what's probably going to happen is that they will have outcomes that might not be the desirable outcomes they want. So, it's I I'm assuming that it's kind of like being able to pair up like the things that you value and trying to understand that if you want particular outcomes, how you go approach these things like might have to look different so that you get this desirable outcome and you're still leaning into the things that you're interested in. Is that fair to say? >> It is. And control is an interesting one for me because I don't meet a lot of people where that's something that they value. >> Yeah. >> And the reason I think that happens is twofold. One of them is probably related to the way that I filter and so people don't show up looking for that. But the other one is that the way that we manage by default already rewards that behavior. >> And so people who like control and where that's where that drives them, they don't need to talk to me. >> They feel pretty comfortable with industrial era leadership where they have the answers and other people do the work. >> Yeah. Do you I'm curious uh because I I I use that one as an example because it came up when you were talking, but I was like I was thinking I don't and maybe maybe I do know people that like control, but it's not obvious to me at least. I don't think I know many people where I'm like, "Oh, that person like I can tell they just love controlling everything." Um but in I'm just curious. Do you think that that's almost like a is that maybe like an intrinsic thing that comes up or is that again like conditioned from their managers? like if they had a manager that was a micromanager or uh you know they they wanted to control everything. Do you think that that might be like something that they learned like this is the way or do you uh or do you think that uh that some people maybe have that more intrinsically where that's just something they actually enjoy? >> So I I think for some people it is intrinsic and you can kind of think of circumstances where that might come about where they've had very little control over their life as children and their and they adjust to that as adults by ensuring that they do have control over the choices they make, the situations they're in, their circumstances, anyone that reports to them. So, you can see how that might be an intrinsic desire that some people have, >> right? >> But a lot of people do get conditioned to it and so they behave as if they want control. They exercise control. When they come to me, they're working in ways where they're exercising control over people, but it feels wrong. there's some imposttor syndrome, there's some kind of flaw or problem. >> And that's when we have to start digging into what is it that actually matters because these habits that you've learned that you're conditioned to, they don't fit. They obviously don't fit or we wouldn't be talking, >> right? That's and so that's a yeah, a perfect Thank you for the going through the example again because I think that's a perfect example of you're doing this thing that you might have been conditioned to do. however it's come about, it's just truly not aligning with what you value. And until you do this reflection and kind of go through it, like it just feels awkward. It feels like there's friction, but you don't really quite understand why. It's just like or maybe you do understand why, but you're probably like to the, you know, to the uh future part of this conversation like how do you start to make changes and uh you know, you might recognize this isn't a good thing, but I don't know what to do. Like this is the only way I know how to go approach these things. That's actually really common is we we get look we get managed in particular ways and we take on the belief usually unstated that that's the only way to manage >> right >> and so even if they figure out it's not working for them there's this huge gap around well what could I do differently >> sure yeah >> I don't I don't even know where to start figuring out how to manage people without exercising control over them >> right and fortunately I think for every single manager a good thing we go through 10 years of schooling for uh all management, right? That's a very common thing that happens. Uh yeah, if you can't sense the sarcasm, if you're watching or listening to this, yeah, I think probably uh like 99% of managers get literally zero training or schooling or education around it. It's just like here you go like which I find completely bonkers because especially in like software engineering fields uh and I know like boot camps and things are a lot more common. The sort of air quotes traditional way was you'd go to school for this sort of stuff for for years. And even if you are going to boot camps or you're selftaught, odds are to get into a spot where you're feeling productive at work, it takes you years. So why is it that we feel that we can just put people into management with like no prior experience doing it and just hey, you're going to do great. >> So I I have I have a couple of different theories about that. uh the the first one is stems from watching management training where it is offered. >> So management training in places where it is offered is often about these are the boxes that you tick. This is how you manage and so the management training comes from a certain set of assumptions that have already been made and the training has been built on that and then it's expected that that approach will work for everybody. >> Of course. Yeah, there's your cookie cutter, right? Go use it. And so then they get conditioned to behave in those ways. >> Okay. >> Uh the other one is that and this is uh more speculative and slightly more slightly more pjorative about the state of management in and business in quite a lot of the world. uh which is there was a time in the in the 50s and the ' 40s like during the the heyday of kind of promoting people from the inside and looking after your workers where promotion did come with training like it came with how are you going to be successful at this job. Uh I lived in the UK for years and the CEO of Tesco when I lived there was had started working in the mail room like literally working in the mail room and had been promoted through every single role in the organization pretty much until he became the CEO and at every step along the way. So he's probably he was probably in his late 60s his 70s at the time. He will have been trained as he went. You're working in the mail room. These are our expectations. Okay, we're promoting you. these are our expectations, >> right? >> But in the this is going to be a a slight economics detour and and you know uh talking about neoliberalism in some not so favorable ways. >> Sure. But but when Milton Freriedman uh successfully convinced the world that shareholder value was all that mattered, lots and lots of organizations started cutting the programs that didn't directly contribute to shareholder value. And they started outsourcing responsibility for training new people, for promoting man like for training managers, for making sure for hiring. They started outsourcing all of that as much as they could onto the public and the rest of it onto external private companies. And so over time they shifted from assuming that in order to do a job you have to be taught how to do a job to expecting that when you show up you can already do it. >> That's that's definitely interesting. I don't think I've given it like a ton of thought. It's just been like this seems really weird, doesn't it? Like why is this happening? But there's probably there's probably a reason for it. So, no, that's uh yeah, I know you're kind of saying maybe it's speculative, but I think like that's uh you know, that seems seems pretty sound to me. I'm not a I'm not an expert, but cool. Okay. Um so, going back to your your outstanding tech leadership. So, uh understanding what matters to you is this key first step. And I think to me that really makes a lot of sense to get people grounded and like you got to understand yourself before we can even go further. you were talking already about um you know not forcing people to do a 180 like meeting them where they're at right so I think that's a great way to do it like we're going to talk about you what you're you know what you value let's meet you where you're at and then what's the next step beyond that >> so once people are clear on on themselves I like to help them figure out how to deliberately build relationships with other people >> okay >> because a lot of our relationships uh ours with our families, ours with friends are just built over time and they kind of accumulate assumptions. And so those set of those assumptions color the way that we interact with people. >> Okay? >> If you expect somebody, for example, to be passive aggressive when they talk to you, then you'll see their behavior as passive aggressive even if they don't mean it that way. >> Okay? And so these biases that we have, these preconceptions get colored not just by our interactions with other people, but by our own assumptions about ourselves and the way that we have to work with people. And so we have to undo a lot of that. >> Once you understand yourself and how you want to interact with people, then you can deliberately start communicating with people in ways that work to support that. >> Okay. Interesting. So do you have to coach people a lot around so certainly focusing on themselves to understand themselves but uh when it comes to having that like deliberate relationship building you have to coach people around like putting them themselves in the other person's shoes to like understand their perspective like what does that look like to so say I want to for uh start establishing more deliberate relationships with people I'm working with and and I've done this introspection I kind of I'm understanding the things I value and how I want to started approaching things and now I want to go form more deliberate relationships with my uh whether it's a product manager, product owner, like some other type of role in my my team, let's say, because I've noticed that now that we've been talking like, hey, yeah, maybe that has been a little bit uh awkward or there's friction like doesn't it doesn't seem ideal in some capacity. So, uh what like how do I make sure that I can start to you know form a deliberate relationship with that person? So a lot of the time we do it by uh essentially starting as role play. So >> you're the reminded reminder these are your values and we just we go through them >> when you want to have this conversation with somebody this is a problem that you see how might you approach it in a way that's true to the values that you have >> and so then they deliberately think about how to frame the question how to approach the conversation and then once they've got an idea of what that looks like then then the question about the other side starts okay well how might they respond >> okay >> what what might they say back and how would you interpret that and how would you ensure that you know you don't get derailed or you don't get angry or have a fight flight or fight response whatever their reaction normally is how do we make sure that we don't fall into those patterns >> right >> and just by doing that prep in advance it often makes that conversation much easier when the time comes and it just makes it easier to start shifting the relationships just kind of organically >> interesting yeah so I guess the two key points like if you again if you understand more about yourself and the things you value and the outcome that you're trying to achieve then almost like you're when you're having these interactions you you kind of need to be thinking about the other person because you're saying if I go to say this or I go to do this how how do they respond and then it's a bit of an assumption right you have to kind of test that assumption as you're interacting and you go okay like that's what happened cool but going back to my goal and how what I value again like what can I do next and you kind of just this iterative process. I know I kind of trying to make it more technical than it might be, but um this is kind of how I'm thinking about like how this kind of plays out, >> but it it does often play out that way. And it requires a lot of conscious thought at the beginning because you're exercising muscles that you haven't used. >> You have to train yourself to do it right. >> Yeah. And so that that's it's not surprising that it feels awkward at first and and that roleplaying makes a big difference. But there's a there's an additional bit which is one of the reasons that this works really well in a coaching setting and not particularly well as advice. Okay? >> And that and that is that the person that you're doing this roleplay with, >> it's important that they can see a number of different potential responses that they can expose you to. Because we're all, myself included, you, everybody who's listening, we're all limited by the things that we can imagine. And if we go back to the idea of I want to be different, but I don't know how because I've never been exposed to it. >> You think about how can I imagine the different responses I might get back? And that's where help is really beneficial. >> That's a it seems it when you say it, I'm like that seems so obvious, but I don't know why that like has not been so obvious. It's it's it's a such an interesting point, right? Because like you you might be in a position where you're like, "Okay, I do want to get help. I want to improve on whatever it is, but if you're not exposed to it's not it's not just different perspective." And I think that's maybe where I was kind of limiting it. It's different perspective is great, but like the scenarios, right? your imagination like this part if you don't go through some of that and have I don't know more creativity around it then you go back you say okay I got these other perspectives that was helpful but then you take I don't know like these scenarios that are limited based on your experience maybe you can come up with one or two more or something but it's still based on like your own experiences and it's going to be very limited so I just had never thought about it that way very cool okay so you start forming these relationships. Um, and then I you have a third point uh that you've you've mentioned and I I'm just kind of glancing at the notes here, but shaping the organization based on one and one. So what what does this mean after you've been forming relationships? >> So that so that's a typo. >> Okay. >> So it should have been should have been one and two. So the two previous points. >> Oh, okay. That makes more sense. But okay, but so how do you go about uh translating that from these interactions to the organization then? >> So the it's a really interesting question because a lot of us in leadership positions don't realize quite how much power we have over the way that people experience the organization and experience work. And by default there are a number of assumptions that we make about how organizations should be structured, about how policies should work, about how promotions should work, about oneto ones, about you know performance reviews, like literally everything comes with a whole host of baggage and assumptions. But once you've worked through well and they're often not true and they don't fit us very well, right? Like because the default, we we've seen loads and loads of it recently. The default behavior when it comes time to let people go is don't tell them, >> right? Yeah. >> Catch them by surprise and absolve yourself of responsibility. Like that that seems to be the playbook that we're seeing quite a lot of at the moment. >> Yeah, that's a great great combo that is clearly working out for many companies. Yes. >> But I I have actually never spoken with a with a leader that wants to behave that way. >> Never. like they behave that way because that's what's they think is expected and that's what they think is required of them. >> Okay, >> but the but the truth is it's not required. Your organization doesn't have to behave that way. You don't have to behave that way. And so once you've got a really clear idea of who you are and what matters to you and your relationships, then you can start thinking about, okay, well, how do I uh how do I do promotions? How do I do feedback? How do I do communication? How do we talk about architecture? like in in ways that actually res resonate with me instead of feeling just always at least a little bit off. And the reason the reason we do that step last is because if you try and do it first, you then find as you identify your values later that you've just put in place a whole bunch of policies that don't fit you any better than the last set of policies did. >> Right? You've you've created different ones, right? they maybe they are better, maybe they are worse, whatever, but let's assume they're better. There's still you're missing out on this opportunity for again that value alignment. So, you've got to go through the process again and try to find your values to to make that all align. So, starting with Yeah, that that makes sense that that would be a good starting point. And it's uh and the reason I use it as the the last step is also because it's um it's possible to where was I going to go with this? >> That's right. Sorry. The reason I the reason I use it as the last step is because once you understand those first two >> and you get some help figuring out the the third one, you can continue doing that on your own on an ongoing basis. >> Okay? >> I don't want my coaching to be permanent. I don't like I don't want to work with the same people forever because that just creates a dependency on me >> and and that's not actually what I'm looking for. I want people who work with me for a while and then go off and do amazing things on their own >> and have a great time and remember me fondly hopefully. >> Sure. >> Yep. >> And so by >> I was going to say that's that's a great point and if for for leadership in general, right, is like you don't at least for me like one of my philosophies is like not to create a dependency. It's like to empower other people, make allow them to do their best work possible. You want to support them. But like I always like to think that uh I if if I've done my job to the best of my ability that I should be able to like almost walk away and like you know let the team kind of flourish and maybe there's maybe there's another manager that comes in but like the the whole point is that like if I were to walk away it's not that the team falls apart. I wasn't the one gluing it together. It's like I've helped the team grow to capabilities where they're awesome and they don't need me. >> Yeah. That's maybe philosophical, but yeah. >> No, but it's it's the same philosophy that I subscribe to. And so as we go through that last process of shaping the organization, learning how to run experiments, learning how to reflect on the success of the experiments, that's providing the set of tools that allow the people to continue running those experiments after we stop working together. >> Awesome. I think that's super cool. Um, yeah, that's a that's a good I I like the the organization of that. I think to me it seems very logical. It seems like it would set people up for success. And I like that you were able to kind of call it out that if you like if you try to jump the gun, right, you go right to the third step, like I want to be able to help shape the organization like yeah, like you could you could start there, but you're probably just doing it suboptimally and and truly just putting yourself back in like the same sort of spot. So >> yeah, exactly. >> Very interesting. Um well, Noah, I think this has been an awesome conversation. And I wanted to to ask you if people uh and I'll get links from you and stuff after, but if you want to let people know where they can find you for for coaching or anything else like where can they where's the best spot to reach out to you and uh would love to hear it. >> So people can find me at noacanter.com. Uh I write there. I have some ebooks there, but at the moment what I'm doing is I'm giving away free coaching call. So, >> uh, if you go to noacaner.com/coaching call and you put in the code, uh, casantina casantino, >> that's right. Yeah. >> Then you'll get, uh, a full discount on the offer and we can have a free coaching call. We talk I'll help you out with whatever these issues brings you to me. And if we're both happy at the end of it, we might talk about continuing to work together. But the truth is, if I can help you, then I'd be absolutely delighted. >> That's awesome. Well, and I appreciate that. I think that that's a that's a tremendous offer for people to be able to to jump on to. So, um, thank you for for extending that. And of course, yeah, I'll make sure I get links and stuff put into the the comments in the description. So, that's uh that's super cool. Thank you. >> Thank you very much. >> Awesome. Okay. Well, enjoy the conversation and folks, yeah, definitely make sure you check out the links that I will have posted below. So, thanks again, Noah. This is great. Thank you.