Junior Developers Can Lead Too! - Principal Software Engineering Manager AMA

I'm just waiting to see some stream feedback I think we are live let me go ahead and get the chat turned on so it's there awesome stuff I got to turn on Instagram that's good cool cool cool and one more just so I can see the Tik Tok chat so it's not hidden awesome stuff okay folks if you're joining if you want to do me a favor say hi in the chat so I know what's working um it looks like all of the sources are connected but it's one of those things I never trust it but if I see messages coming through then I know that platform is working uh otherwise I have to try and monitor uh more screen space to try and look for messages so let me know just say hi um we have a topic for today it's going to be leading as a junior engineer Junior software developer uh looks like Anar rag on YouTube says hi so YouTube's working thank you for for testing that out I appreciate it hopefully the uh hopefully the the Twitter stream name work this time uh I had to contact restream because the seems like there's a bug where the name wasn't taking effect so there was a couple streams at least one stream I did where it was saying it was live coding and I was like that's not what I was doing at all uh coding with Al I'm not sure how to pronounce that name I'm sorry but hello my favorite developer I'm I'm glad that I'm your favorite developer that's awesome good to see you thanks for joining so yeah the topic for today is going to be leading as a junior um I did want to mention that um this came in through my private Discord so uh there's no reason that you necessarily like if you're not interested I'm not trying to like force anyone to doing anything I try to take uh requests and stuff wherever I can if you're interested uh basically if you click that link for S stack basically that's a paid paid newsletter subscription it also gets you in the Discord Community I try to direct people there obviously because it's more convenient for me um but when I have messages and stuff coming in there's some people that are looking for a little bit more help and I'm like look like it's going to take me a little bit more to respond to that and uh truth be told I don't have uh sufficient time to be like combing through DMs and trying to to write a ton to people but I find in the Discord at least I can address it and then other people can benefit from it as well um before I jump into that one more note um I've done a little bit of a shout out for this before um on the topic of being able to submit things to talk through if you would like I have a vlog channel that I'm doing where it's called code commute and basically when I'm commuting as you might have guessed uh I am doing software engineering topics from the car it's not a live stream that would be uh Pretty Reckless uh it's just me driving watching the road talking through software engineering stuff but I try to get through topics that people submit so if it's not a good fit for uh a live stream because you want to be interactive and stuff if you just want me to chat through different scenarios or different perspectives you can check out code commute um I've been getting a lot of good feedback in terms of people leaving comments and other stuff they want me to chat through so uh I'll keep doing that and otherwise of course if uh if you're joining not from my primary YouTube account um my primary YouTube where I put all my polished videos uh they're I have an editor that does them for me so it's not my my janky editing and he's doing my thumbnails now so hopefully um hopefully I get a higher click-through rate because my thumbnails suck um but yeah if you want to check out Dev leader that is going to be more polished videos and then CP and.net tutorials as well but the topic like I said is leading as a junior I'm going to go put that into the chat as well um again I know newsletters aren't for everyone that's totally cool no pressure If you don't want to subscribe but if you want to see what I'm usually going to be talking about during these it's going to be uh more often than not the previous newsletter so just a heads up um newsletter is also totally free to subscribe to so if you're like I don't want to pay for stuff I like getting free information just subscribe um you can you don't even have to read the emails until a later Point they'll be going to your inbox but if you want access to the 70 previous issues I guess I've been doing this for a little while now I think there's 71 yeah this one is currently issue 71 so uh it's been a little while if you want access to those those are behind the pay wall but like I said you get the Discord Community for free with that so um with that said let's jump over to Leading as a junior so I really liked getting this question um because I think that a lot of the times when I have people reaching out for help and they want perspective on stuff it's a lot of the time it's very technical focused right so and I don't blame people it's software development it's a technical field but uh a lot of folks are like hey like I'm you know I'm I'm going through a boot camp or I want to switch over to being a software developer um whatever it happens to be I'm I'm in college currently and there's a lot of focus on like hey like what programming language what Tex stack like how do why anything technical right it's this huge focus on the technical skills like I said I get it I understand why it's a very technical field um but to me it's interesting because I think that maybe people don't realize from like a career perspective you have so much time to keep emphasizing the technical portion there's so many different things that come up in your career all the time where there's a huge technical focus and I think what end up getting missed is that there's soft skills involved and I think sometimes people get into the field uh what I say sometimes I mean probably a lot of the time people get into software development because it feels like a technical field oh I already got to ban someone from kick get out of here um get out of my chat um it's a technical field and people join it because I think they expect that they're not going to be uh having to interact with people a lot and it's just like it's just not reality I think that maybe you can get away with it for a little bit like especially if you're like a hobby developer and you're just like making stuff like yeah you don't need to interact with other people that's cool and there's going to be some jobs where you're working especially as a junior maybe you can get away they just got you locked up in a closet writing code and you're happy doing that that's cool but I don't think that's like a really like sustainable from a career perspective and I think that for most developers that are trying to grow in their career if you're even as a contractor I would say this comes up but if you're trying to grow in your career you're going to have to work on your soft skills your people skills and that means if you're actively like avoiding these things because you don't like it like it's probably going to catch up at some point and the challenge with that is like when it does catch up if you've been avoiding it you might be say like at Junior mid level or something around that range and then trying to go for more senior level and wondering why it's challenging like wondering why it feels like you're hitting a bit of a wall and it's going to be things like not having influence uh not being able to um collaborate with others effectively like leading projects it's going to feel like there's a lot of friction in the things you're doing um and not for all people sometimes like you know you might start leaning into it you might catch on quick and that's awesome would hope be hopeful for a lot of people that way but I think again if you haven't been practicing it it's this really big missed opportunity to do awesome along the way so that's why I liked getting this question because it was from a junior developer in my Discord community and they were basically saying I recognize that I'm Junior I'm a junior backend developer and I'm curious how can I start how can I start leaning into this more right so they have some awareness already that it's going to be something important and specifically they were asking about leadership which I thought was really cool I know I've been saying that on repeat but it wasn't just like how do I communicate better or like how do I I did a YouTube video that I released today about um like written communication from a Reddit article um and I talk a lot about like verbal communication and just like collaborating and stuff but this was just like another level of that which was leadership so thought it was good because to me it suggests there's some awareness that this kind of thing is going to be potentially uh quite important as you're going through your career which is the next part I want to talk about so I think it might sound like a bit of a tangent but I'm pretty good at tangents so uh I think that a lot of the time people hear um leadership they hear leadership and they're automatically kind of thinking like management right like I need to be someone who is more senior I need to be someone like a manager or a higher up position to be able to be a leader right and and one of the challenges that I see with this is that people are often it's I don't know if it's like a social media thing it's kind of weird but like I get why they do it but I don't like it and I'm pretty vocal about it when I see it but I see people do this thing where they'll say like you know Boss versus man or Boss versus leader or manager versus leader and basically it's like by definition if you're a boss or a manager like you are the bad thing and then the other side of the bad thing is a leader and I don't know if you've been on social media a little bit like you've probably seen this kind of thing if you're following like Tech social stuff or career stuff you'll see it come up where people are like they'll put up diagrams and it's like you know someone who's like ordering people around and it's like that's the manager they're the terrible person and then the other side is everyone's happy and thriving and successful it's like that's the leader and it's like hold on like like this just isn't it's just not right and I'm biased of course because I'm a manager so I don't like it but um it's not right because it's comparing different things so not only is it trying to just like paint a picture where man like manager is bad which is ridiculous um they're different things like a manager is a role it's a it's a job title and a role leader is not a role you don't like get hired to be leader I'm not like I'm going to apply to be leader and and then and then you get all of these amazing qualities and someone else was like no I'm the evil person I'm going to apply to be manager now that I'm manager I'm this evil Overlord like it's just it's just not how it is so when you compare these things and do this weird dichotomy it's just false I think people do it because they're trying to illustrate that like like what leadership traits and characteristics are good but I think that's the extent of it and I think that's the extent of the truth behind that so I promise there's a segue back to Juniors here but um the the reality is like I said a manager is a role or a job title and leader is a set of actions and characteristics that you could embody so if you take just a manager for example you could be a manager and be a poor manager because you don't have good leadership traits you are bad at leading you are inexperienced at leading whatever it happens to be you don't have good leadership traits as a side effect that will potentially make you a bad manager now you could also be a good manager and happen to have really good leadership characteristics generally I would say to be a good manager probably need good leadership characteristics so hello on YouTube Al I don't I feel like you have a lot of names and I don't know if I can say all of them or almost any of them Al cenzo I can't I don't want to embarrass myself but thank you so much for saying hello and dropping in on YouTube um I'm very bad with names so I apologize and you have plenty of them that's a lot of opportunity for me to uh to do a bad job so I will stop myself early um but thanks for joining I appreciate you being here so you can be a manager and a good leader and end up being a good manager as a result of that it's not the only thing you need as a manager to be successful but probably something that you want in order to enable you to be a good manager so where's this going well it's kind of what I was hinting at when I was saying that a manager is a role but leadership is actions that you take and characteristics that you can embody now those aren't restricted to any role which is is the important part here right and this is the part that like if there's a take away from you watching this it's that I want you to remember that leadership is not restricted to a role it's not like okay you you've been hired onto the team this is uh you have job position X and you are locked away from any type of leadership characteristics those are not reserved for you those are reserved for some special roles that you do not yet meet it's not how it works leadership is a set of actions and characteristics that you can embody okay so with that out of the way this is the reminder that if you are junior yes you can exhibit leadership characteristics you can take actions that help align you with what good leaders would have but the I would say like the big difference before I start getting into some examples is that um your your level of influence as a junior or someone that's new to something will be smaller and that's okay like there's nothing wrong with that it will be smaller than someone that happens to be more experienced now not universally but statistically that's probably the case and it it just kind of makes sense right someone's more senior or someone whose role like myself is as a manager to literally be helping lead people like that is literally part of my responsibility it means I should be doing it and I should be doing it often so um it will just look different and that's totally cool um so Ryan Wakefield on YouTube how do you avoid crossing the line uh between leader and manager as a junior um I might ask you to rephrase a little um just so I can answer properly cuz I think I know what you're asking and if I start to answer it in a way that uh you're hoping it was answer different like if I if I'm missing your point please just uh rephrase and I'll try again but so the question is how do you avoid crossing the line between leader and manager oh leader and manage as a junior okay so if the question is about hey I'm a junior and I'm trying to exhibit leadership traits how do I avoid or like how do I know if I'm trying to do things that a manager should be doing versus leadership traits so to give you an example like I would not expect Juniors to be doing 101s with people and trying to help build them in their career like that that's a a manager's responsibility they should be doing that uh a junior should not be helping delegate work um they might have ideas around it but I wouldn't expect a junior and probably would feel a little awkward if someone knew or Junior was like hi team like okay Bob could you go work on this part and Sally could you work on this part and like the delegation part's a little bit weird so there's there's a level here um so I when I get into some other examples uh Ryan if you don't mind I might revisit this a little bit later because I think once I give you some examples of things that you can be doing that exhibit leadership at least from my perspective it might help paint a picture for like what it's not and then I can hopefully come back and and try to give more examples of what it's not so giving you some more concrete examples of what it could be might help explain what it's not so I think it's a really good question hopefully that's a good starting point but let's see if we can revisit and hello on LinkedIn uh is I'm not sure if your name is pronounced uh Dia uh good to see you thanks for joining I appreciate you being here so for folks there's more people joining the stream if you're wondering what the topics about it's going to be about different ways that you can try to lean into leadership as a junior because it's not restricted to just a job title okay so there's two main class classifications of things that I think can help uh as a junior to lead into things that feel more like leadership and to talk about them super high level one is being proactive and taking initiative and that's less focused on the people side of things but I thought it was important to include because I think it ties in so being proactive and taking initiative is one part and then the other part is basically around helping and mentoring and I realized if you're hearing that and going wait wait wait wait we're talking about Junior Engineers what do you mean helping and mentoring we're only talking about Juniors yes Juniors can do that too uh it might be that they find fewer opportunities to do it than someone with tons and tons of experience but it's still possible and I have seen it even many times this year alone so let's talk on the first part about taking initiative and being proactive um and before I do I'm just going to read Ryan's note before I get too far I'm personally a senior and an unofficial team lead and I'm struggling to avoid Crossing that line not a junior I know but still relates a little I think okay um this maybe let me talk about this from this perspective a little bit more um because I think this context helps my perspective at least because um this is an interesting topic this will look different at different companies different teams different organizations so when I go to talk through this I'm not ex like I don't work with Ryan I don't know Ryan's exact situation but I I want to offer some perspective here so again to to read the whole kind of idea out loud uh Ryan's saying uh he's not he's he is a senior and an unofficial team lead and struggling to avoid trying to cross the line between like leading and and what management might be um so he's like I know I'm not a junior but still it's uh relevant and so yes I think this is this is a good point and and I and thank you for bringing this up too because when I talk about the Junior stuff like I think about things a lot of the time almost on like a a spectrum so I don't like thinking like absolute like black white onoff binary kind of thing I like thinking that there's spectrums with stuff so when I start going through some of the junior things you might see like okay like yeah but that's also relevant at higher levels and even the other way if I talk about what a manager does and in terms of leadership expectations you might be able to peel that back and say yeah but you could also be doing that at not like a principal level or a senior level or even you know intermediate level there's there's going to be a spectrum here so as an unofficial team lead so let's okay let's talk about The Unofficial part briefly um The Unofficial part makes things interesting because uh of expectations so what is the expectation and does the rest of the team know what I think is an important aspect we don't need to dive into the details just something to think about if you are an unofficial team lead why unofficial and what does that mean because if you if you have taken on this role of Team lead unofficially like no one has suggested and no one has sort of uh kind of directed you into this position it might become a little bit more awkward when people go well why why is Ryan doing this like who who is Ryan to say this right so we're g to come back to that in just a moment if this is something a manager has said hey like you've been doing great work like um I kind of see you leading this project or the way the team is structured they're getting you to kind of take more uh leadership initiative on things and at least it's being recognized by someone like the manager that's one thing or even being recognized by the team so on The Unofficial part I think it's important to understand who is recognizing you as that title or having that responsibility because when it's official at least it's being like the expectation is set Ryan is the team lead so the manager recognizes that and then the team is informed like this is Ryan's responsibility so there are expectations that he will be doing this okay so this is an important thing to think through and the reason why is because I think you can get friction coming out of um what what feels like nowhere it feels like nowhere because when you don't have aligned expectations a lot of the time I talk about aligned expectations between you and your manager but this will now be aligned expectations uh is unofficial it's recognized by leadership and teammates okay good so this is this is a good spot to be in if it was not recognized by other people on the team let's say and you start trying to take some of these proactive steps there might be other people on the team that are like dude like what are you doing here like let me do my thing who are you to suggest this like you're getting in my way um obviously people are going to interact differently but you could start to notice friction because it isn't being recognized so the fact that you're saying it is I think that's a good spot to be in so when I think about people that demonstrate leadership well I think one or I guess two things that happen uh are they're building trust and they're building respect I think that's foundation for leadership uh the videos that I'm going to be uploading to code commun uh just copy them my computer they're not uploaded yet they will be tonight um I talk about burnout in the one and I talk about uh for a while I I try to emphasize just how important building trust and respect is in order to have a foundation for this kind of stuff so when you have the trust and respect you can start to get more Buy in on things so in terms of expectations I know I'm I'm rambling a lot sorry uh so how do you ride that line properly so again like the expectations of a team lead you're you don't need to be like trying to help grow people in their career I think it's good to have awareness like if you can see that say you uh you recognize that people you're working with are starting to get a little burnt out or you can tell like feel that they're getting disengaged and you're chatting through like status updates and stuff and like you're kind of hearing this this might be good feedback that you can even let the manager know because it's not it's not the expectation that you are the one guiding people through this kind of stuff but I think if you have awareness of it it can be a good feedback mechanism so just as an example I would say generally and you'll have people talk about tech lead and team lead as different things some places it's the exact same thing other places they treat them differently where Tech lead is more about the Hands-On technology kind of thing and like so architecture esque and um the team lead side is more like say project or people focused but in my opinion once you start getting people focused and not even just project or technical like that starts to blur the lines a lot with management so I have never worked with team leads where they were doing the management portion of the manager's job but I have worked with team leads OR tech leads that they might do things like they're running the sync meetings they are helping ensure that uh people who have design documents and stuff are getting attention they're helping P attention to people who have poll requests open that need more reviewers on them um they are a lot more in tune with like the architectural Direction so there's at least from like a like the technical side of things I think there's an opportunity to be taking initiative and staying on top of these things so that you become a person that people turn to because they are looking for your input on this stuff right they say hey I know Ryan I know you're the the team lead lead uh and or even if it happened to be like um unofficial in this case right like they recognize you Ryan because you've been on so many of the you've been on the team for a while you have the experience you know how the architectural direction is heading like all these things right so I would say that you're if you're delegating work that can be I know that can feel like a little bit of a spicy kind of thing for some people if you're delegating work I think you need to have that expectation with the manager or the product owner however work is usually delegated and figured out uh I know for example I have uh someone that reports to me who is a team lead and they they do delegate work and that's totally fine like that expectation is very clear um I know sometimes for that individual they can they can express like they don't want to step on toes and that's total like they have awareness of it right so they're saying like hey I think this would be a good thing for this person to work on and it's a priority so it will come up in the sync meetings and they will say hey so and so like I think this would be a good one for you to to take like are you freeing up to be being able to do it and it's more of a discussion so it's a recommendation and a discussion not like a hey so and so like these next three things are top of your list like go away and do them um so you know I think they do an awesome job leading in this example because they have a lot of respect from the team the team really trust them in the work they're doing and that way when they're putting themselves in a position where they're like hey I need to delegate some of this because a team lead's not also doing just all the work that they trust like this person does think it's good work for me to do they know what's a priority right I trust that they're talking about the priority items not random stuff that they're making up so kind of comes back to like those two things as a foundation but um I know I'm kind of going on attention here I don't know if that helps give some perspective but uh if there's other directions you're interested in just let me know uh specifically and I will try to to bring in the Reign on that but hopefully that's a little bit helpful uh Ary says you take the role you want to see yourself in the future yes to some degree I would say as long as you're doing it in a way that's not um impeding others because people can um what's a good way to say this people can lack awareness sometimes so I I agree with Ary that in general like you you don't want to wait you don't want to just wait sit back and hope that something's going to happen so being proactive is is the thing I'm going to get to here um but you need to have awareness because if you're doing stuff that's like stepping on toes causing friction then you will be making more problems for yourself so awareness is key but in general yep uh Ryan if you want uh I don't know if you follow me on other social media just send me a message if happy to respond so whether it's LinkedIn if it's on Twitter X Blue Sky just pick a platform look for Dev leader and if I'm not there then send me a message on something else so I could start posting on that platform so uh okay cool let's get back to being proactive because I think it's uh I think it's related to kind of what AR's getting out here so when I talk about taking initiative and being proactive I think this is absolutely something that any level of engineer can do and technically any role can do and I think that it goes a long way uh what would you suggest should I consider learning back in from like Hussein Nasser as well um I I'll come back to this question uh rishik if you have for this kind of stuff uh I need I just need a lot more context uh like when you say what would you suggest I should consider learning back end I don't know like what back end of what language are you building and what kind of applications are you building what scale are we talking about uh what's your current level of experience you have to you have to realize I don't know anything about you and for me to give you advice without having any of that context would be um would be bad advice uh so is it cool to still want to be actively involved in developing coding even if you're uh you're a principal I like to develop but I delegate as needed yeah John uh John R so yes absolutely um give you an example I haven't talked about it on in this this current live stream but like to give you an example my career prior to Microsoft I was an engineering manager for eight years and I was a software developer at the same time so I had like a technical manager role so I'd code all the time um and now now I don't code at Microsoft but I code every day outside of work so I still love to program so is it cool to to still want to be actively involved in developing and coding yeah I work with like all the principal Engineers I work with they code all the time they're actively coding every day um but they do have these other expectations on them that they are leading big initiatives that they are leading architectural designs um so the expectations change but certainly they are the subject matter experts uh they have you know the history the expertise and the code base all that stuff so I think it's from my perspective it's expected uh some places might be different right I've worked in places where the architect role was a little bit more of like a what are they I can't even remember the the term used like Ivory Ivory Tower is that what we call it yeah something like that um my brain sometimes melts when I'm live streaming so I'm like am I saying stupid stuff and the answer is probably yes but um so I've seen all sorts of things so it's going to be different everywhere um oh I'm Junior Dev starting like work with.net my question got deleted oh sorry rishik yeah um yeah so if you're a junior and you want to work withn net like asp.net core for sure there's lots of great creators online there's Nick chaps there's uh Milan javanovich uh I have stuff online um ultimately you want to be building things you want to be building using the technologies that you want to be working with professionally so if you want to be a net developer build an asp.net core just start building stuff um like if you I always like to think about it this way if you're like I can't like I'm waiting to get a job and I'm applying to places and like I don't know what to like how should I be trying to spend my time like Skilling up like imagine the place you want to be working and I always go to Pokemon because I think Pokemon's awesome but if you're like I want to I want to do back in development for some type of Pokemon game some service that Pokemon has I just want to do that and pick any by the way you replace Pokemon with literally anything that you're interested in like instead of saying like oh I don't have that job like I guess I can't do anything just literally go make the stuff like go build a Pokemon database go build a Pokemon a Pokemon tracker build your own Pokedex like literally just start building the stuff like make the experience for for yourself that way you're doing it it's not like it might be wasted time in terms of like you're not shipping it and getting millions of dollars from your users and stuff but it's not wasted time from a learning experience so I always recommend to people when they're saying like what should I be doing like just go start building the stuff that you want to be doing professionally you will come across the resources you need to find in order to get unblocked so you need to get stuck don't just like watch a tutorial and say oh now know it because you don't if you do you'll forget it in like a week you'll forget it when by the time you have to go use it so just go do the work get stuck get lost on it go watch tutorials get unblocked keep going because that's how the rest of the world works on it so hopefully that helps R Shake sorry if that sounds like too general of an answer though um want to be nerd I don't go to UNI 18 almost 19 years old and apply to many jobs but I don't even get any interviews my projects are good and I have a design background so my projects do look good what should I do 1.5 years of coding experience cool um so want to be nerd um keep doing more of it keep applying to more um you can ab test your resumés uh if you're only applying to certain types of jobs consider applying to different ones I know some people are like I've applied to you know Microsoft a thousand times and I don't get it I'm like yep you and a million other people too so like if you're not having luck with that try a different place if you're only applying to Big tech try startups if you're only apply find a startups try big Tech um try different things something else I want to call out too because I think uh I want to give some perspective on this so w toab be nerd 1.5 years of coding experience some people will say yeah me too like I've been at this for a while and I still can't get a job um and then they go because the you know the the job environment's bad and don't get me wrong the job environment is very challenging right now but here's some perspective Okay so and I don't think that I'm special in this regard I just want to explain it because I think it's helpful to see um so for myself I had been programming for four years before University so four years of not making money from being a software developer and then I had a 5-year University program so n years before I landed a full-time job I've been developing software for 9 years years before I had a full-time job now University for me was awesome because I had an internship program so even with the internship program I had four years of writing software before my first internship which I got because I was in school with an internship program like so would I have gotten that job if I just applied as a random person from the street probably not but they were active L looking for interns like so there are some companies that do this right not everyone has this opportunity with internship programs the point I'm making is that even for myself it was four years of building software writing code every day because I love to do it four years before I even had an internship so is it hard now yes it's hard because there's tons of competition there's lots of remote work not dismissing that but I don't like people going oh it was and I know wannab be nerd you're not saying this but I just want to make it clear it's not like it was so easy before it took me 9 years before I had a full-time job it's a long time uh so your projects are good design background so they look good what should I do keep building stuff keep building stuff keep applying to places um I I'm not s I'm not saying this is gonna like a good strategy for everyone I know some people that were in a similar position they were career switchers and they followed the advice of just keep building stuff and then they ended up like basically becoming like independent developers and contractors and they're like I can't believe I was trying to apply to places and this entire time I've just been building stuff and then I could end up selling it to people so they ended up finding their own career path in a totally different way so um honestly like as you're trying to apply to jobs building up a portfolio of things to do keep building things it's it's only going to help right like so Network more if you're not doing that apply to more jobs um someone had messaged me on Twitter and they said um like they're kind of struggling they're like I can't get a job what do I do to change it and again same thing I'm like I don't I don't know anything about you I can't I can't give you advice so I said like are you applying to to jobs like are you applying on LinkedIn are you applying directly like what are you doing and they said yeah some jobs on LinkedIn and uh and I think they said they're applying to a couple of companies outside of that and I said well how many like I don't even know how many you're applying to cuz if you're applying to like one a week I mean it's it's probably going to be really hard to get a job um I always shout out John vvir for this because this number sounds insane and I just like saying it because I I actually trust a lot of what John says because he has a lot of data points to back it up John vvir from latterly IO suggests applying to 80 to 100 jobs per week and like I'm not I didn't make up the number like and you didn't hear it wrong 80 to 100 so if you're you know being like hey I applied to like a couple jobs this week yeah like it's it's probably going to be pretty tough because people are out there applying in that much volume um personally if I had to think about applying to a hundred different companies in a week I don't even know where I would go do that to be honest but that much volume is what he's suggesting now do I recommend that I don't know I think like that's a lot like I said I don't even know how I would find 100 but I recommend two things in terms of job applications one is more volume I don't know how much you're doing for volume but I would say do more step one step two is I don't know what your networking looks like so if you're not doing any of that start doing that that could be going to meetups that could be online and what I don't mean is dming random people and saying hey you work at this company please review my resume or you work at this company please refer me not a good strategy um you could do it you could spam a thousand people you might get some to give you a referral I just think that it's a terrible way to network so I've made a video on this on code commute where I gave my entirely honest perspective on it if you are doing uh more volume in applications I think applications online that's a volume game play it send more right for the jobs that you're really interested in tailor your stuff specifically for that otherwise you're last and out resumes to apply to places the second part is networking and that's not a short-term thing that is a long-term strategy and that's helpful even after you get a job so don't look at the networking as like a let me blast as many people as I can on social media to network because the value of your network is greatly diminished if there's no actual relationship build so that's my perspective on that um I hope that's helpful um things is I okay and I'm reading John R back to your question so this is the thing is I accidentally became a software engineer and just happened to get a principal title my goal was just to hone my technical skills when I applied to the job which at the time wasn't an S like a software engineering title okay yeah um the reality is so again I don't know where you work and how things are are structured but um I would say if you find the expectations that have given to you in your your principal role um because this is it's different everywhere right like principal at Microsoft like other places don't even have principal they have staff um I when I was working at a startup we introduced senior as a title and we were like we don't have anything else because we didn't just want to make up titles um these things are different everywhere number one thing if you want to grow in your current role is talk to your manager about your expectations if you feel that those expectations are not aligned with with the career direction that you're interested in that's a conversation about where you might want to go or change because if you're saying I'm very interested in building more technical skills as an example I want to code more but in your current role if the expectation is that you are not doing that you need to have an honest conversation if that's not what you want to be doing or you don't think that's a good growth opportunity is it worth switching to something else maybe potentially losing the title like it's it's not principle anymore maybe but you're at least focusing on things to build up your skill set that you're interested in um you know it's something to consider it's kind of like some people get promoted to a manager position because that's the default like not everywhere and fortunately this is being reduced more but it's like the default oh like you're good at your role and we don't have any more titles oh you're a manager now and it's like yeah but manager is a completely different role and you might find like I hate it and I'm bad at it because I hate it and I just want to write code and then you end up like kind of being a bad manager and then feeling trapped because anything else is like well now I'm taking a step back aren't I no it's just a different role so you might need to ask yourself the honest question of like am I getting to focus on what I want for my career growth um want to be nerd I don't know anyone who don't come across with qualify people I have zero Network while my Social Circle is narrow um I have LinkedIn but it seems useless too um I would recommend LinkedIn I would say would strongly encourage you to check out LinkedIn uh and give it an honest uh an honest try uh despite what Elon Musk says about LinkedIn um I know plenty of people from posting on LinkedIn for just shy of two years straight consistently I've had LinkedIn for way too long like over a decade um but cons consistently posting on LinkedIn for almost 2 years now uh I've have come across many people who have expanded their Network for in life-changing ways um just give you an example okay so I want to I think this is important for you to hear so wannabe nerd says um I have zero Network okay so I had I don't want to say I had zero Network I had a I had a good Network and I have a you know my I have a good job position I'm happy with work and everything and still saying I'm going to post on social media I'm going to interact on social media part of that is and I mean the big reason is I want to be able to give back do things like this help other people go through because I didn't take advantage of things like this or I didn't go looking for resources like this I just want to help the side effect of that is that you network so to give you some examples of even for myself okay just from posting on social media and interacting with people um that allowed me to be able to create courses on dome train which is run by Nick chapsas who's one of the biggest YouTubers in the world forn net so that only happened because I was creating content I was networking uh I've met people that I have been able I've been able to interview Scott Hanselman if you don't know who that is he's also like a he's a Microsoft VP uh huge tech nerd he's super awesome but I know him from like from programming content and I got to interview him and it was super cool how because I was networking I was able to have an impact on my current boss because they were able to see that I was posting a lot on social media right so when I was applying for the job I had this presence where I was like if you want to know more about me it's it's literally all online everything I'm doing is online right so like these opportunities come up because you create them so want to be nerd to say I have zero Network well guess what add me on LinkedIn now you have one in your network and then keep doing it right keep engaging with people talk with people ask questions share what you're learning go be proactive and network it doesn't happen on its own none of it happens on its own but you you got to start so I'm not trying to say that to to scold you or anything I just like you can do it anyone can do it but you got to do it it's not going to happen on its own rishik as a junior Dev can you recommend me five books to read want for C yep I literally have an article on this um one sec I got to navigate my own website which by the way is finally on Blazer and off of Wordpress hell yeah um books I got a new keyboard and I can't spell properly so give me one more SEC here so this article hopefully this works so now is a handful of books that's from the beginning of this year um but there's a bunch of C books there um there's some newer versions like I think you'll see on there like Mark Price has a book for c c 12 andet 8 net 9 just released so um it's already at a date but I think you'll get the idea so hopefully that helps um I think on the right writing better code and better software engineering P like these ones are primarily c um to be honest I don't do a lot of reading for books because um I learn much better from from building stuff Hello Irving yo good to see you thanks for joining okay folks you guys have so many good questions I got to get back to this article though so keep them coming though I'm happy to keep answering them so I'm just going to keep the conversation going uh so we were talking about Juniors and Leadership and trying to be proactive right so I think in my opinion something that leaders can do well is not just react to things it's really hard to lead things when you're only responding don't get me wrong if there are things coming up as a leader you need to also be able to react and do it effectively right not just knee-jerk reactions to things but understanding what's going on taking necessary steps but I think as leaders what you want to be focused on is how do you get ahead of that kind of stuff how can you look for opportunities so this is where being proactive and taking initiative comes into play so as a junior you might be saying well how the heck am I supposed to be proactive take initiative on these things I'm I'm only Junior I'm new to the team I don't know this stuff that's okay we're going to start focusing on opportunities to come up so in the newsletter article I gave a cple couple of examples some things might include okay so you are on this team and your team really values documentation okay so you you're hearing it from the team people go oh we got this uh this wiki page or if you have on call rotations like we do um you might we call them battle cards but the they could you can call them whatever you want just like steps to guide people through if you're on call how to navigate stuff and you might observe that your team really values this stuff but you also hear them complaining like oh man this thing's out of date like we have this documentation it's like we rely on it so much but it's always stale interesting that smells like an opportunity to me so you might not be the person that knows all of the details about this stuff but what could you maybe I'm going to try inventorying to see like which of these pages is at a date maybe I can actually follow up with some of the experts did my stream stop oh sorry one of the one of my stream feeds showed that I was just frozen so um hopefully I don't lose you folks but maybe the bomb Cyclone is back here in Seattle hopefully we're good um so you could be taking initiative to go inventory to follow up with people that might be the experts and you could start being proactive about this stuff there might be another example you could think of if uh your team is like huge on automated tests okay so your team has all this testing infrastructure structure heavily rely on unit tests functional tests integration tests architectural tests configuration tests any type of test but they're flaky oh YouTube started interesting okay thanks for letting me know hopefully it's all good um so if you're in this situation you might say okay well everyone's saying that we got these flaky tests but we really value testing like maybe I can go carve out some time and start making an impact on fixing up those flaky tests or deleting them if they're not valuable anymore right like let me go help the team get past this so you can think of probably a million different examples that are like this but you have to think about your own situation I can't predict everything as much as I would like to um so finding ways that you can benefit the team by being proactive but I need to add a caveat here and that's you need to a baseline that you're already meeting the expectations that are given to you and this is very important and it doesn't just go for juniors this is at any level if you are trying to be proactive doing the right helpful thing you're saying I recognize this is an opportunity for our team to do better based on what people are saying like I know I can help and make this a good thing it can be perceived that you are distracted if you are unable to deliver on the expectation that are given to you and you only go focus on these other things so for example if you are a junior developer and you have one or two work items that you're working through right you might have a couple bug fixes or some small features if those were supposed to take you to the end of the Sprint whatever timeline that happens to be I'm just making this up if you had this expectation given of you and then you miss it because you were off going and just doing documentation that might be like a hm okay well thanks for being helpful but we got to got to focus on this stuff like these are the the business priorities and then the next Sprint goes by and then you're still late maybe get one of the things done but now this other thing's like two sprints late and oh well I was still working on the documentation it's like look like that's a nice to have like we acknowledge that's the thing we want but like these are the business priorities these are the expectations that were set it starts to look like you're not focused on the right things so if you are meeting the expectations right you're doing the work that is expected of you you're doing all the right things and then you start reaching outside of that being proactive I think that's an awesome spot to be in um going to the chat one of the questions I know some Junior developers that got leadership basically thrown at them are as a junior how do I assert myself in a manner that helps my development and fulfills my team's needs for a leader um yeah it's interesting so um I would be very curious about the situation I guess so as a junior how do I assert myself in a manner that helps my development and fulfills my team's needs for a leader I don't know if I've seen too many examples where uh like a junior is is tossed into a leadership position versus like is proactively trying to to be proactive and like take more initiative on so um without being like too self-centered I will maybe use my own experience because I think it's relevant um because when I was at Magnet forensics before Microsoft uh I I was made like a leader a manager very early and arguably I was Junior by any definition you could Poss come up with I was Junior so um as a junior how do I assert myself in a manner that helps my development so for me my development as a junior where a leader leaves a role they only have a junior Dev okay let me finish this thought and I'll come back to the serving because I think that's extra context is always helpful um so in my case my own development was around I still want to write code it's critical for me because I see myself as a software developer but but at that time I also realized that I had new expectations put on me so I needed to make sure like that my my boss like was on the same page with me with what he wanted done so what is the expectation of me like okay I'm helping prioritize things I'm working with the product owners to make sure we know what the deliverables are I'm helping align that work with people so how do I do that like I don't know I've never done this before so my own development focused on these two streams and in fact I actually started Dev leer in 2013 to document my journey on that second part in particular so like how do you like I had to go set that kind of stuff up for myself to make sure I was focused on it for learning but fulfill my team's needs for a leader is interesting so I let's kind of go to your second part here so the situation where the leader leaves and the role they uh the only role they have is for junior devs yeah this part can be really really tricky and what I said earlier on this stream I think is more important than ever for for addressing this and that's if you are a junior as an example if you find that you're in this position where you're supposed to be taking like the expectation is that you're stepping in to help right um like do you have the trust and respect from the team because if you don't and you start trying to do those things it's going to backfire most likely and not for lack of trying it's not because you're trying to be malicious and you're like yes it's my team now I'm almost the CEO um like it's not that's not the case right but the reality is if you haven't built the trust and exp or the trust and respect that's the word I want thank you um if you haven't built the trust and respect then people will start to go like well who do you think you are to be telling me what to do right like it starts to form resentment and friction it's not your intention but that's what can happen so I think if you're in this situation you want to be showing to others like first of all you will be uh proactive so you're looking for opportunities where there are challenges part of that means listening to people right you don't need to be a manager or any fancy title to be listening to where people are experiencing challenges you start to see the theme coming up because you're doing a lot of listening so now the team has an opportunity to be voice and concer they're being heard okay cool like team needs us to focus on this okay like that should be a priority somehow right but now if you're in this position like it's a weird thing to be delegating stuff to the team so because you're not officially in a position where you can be doing that you really need to lean into the fact that you got to build the trust and respect with people right if people trust that you're looking out for the best interest of the team they trust that you can make good decisions and they respect you for what you're showing so far if you're in a position where you're like hey we got these you know we got these deliverables coming up we don't there's no one kind of like leading us directly like can you demonstrate over time that you can start doing this incrementally so it might just be that instead of stepping up and saying look at me what's the what's the meme from the movie like look at me I'm the captain now like instead of doing that it's like can you incrementally start showing like I am capable of doing this and I think that incremental approach can help you build the trust and respect but that's my my thought on that so hopefully hopefully that's helpful Irving I'm not sure if that's a sufficient enough answer but um I hope that helps and you're welcome John I hope I hope the feedback and the thought process is helpful I'm just a I'm just a dude that likes writing code and helping other software Engineers so I hope it helps okay so theme number one is going to be being proactive okay I think taking initiative being proactive is a key ingredient into trying to demonstrate some leadership characteristics so I would recommend that if you are Junior can you find some of these opportunities make sure that you are delivering on your your expectations first because without that you can run into what looks like distractions next part again there's more details in the newsletter if you have have just joined if you uh want to know where to find information it's weekly. deev leer.com but if you're like I don't care about whatever has been out before I just want all the new stuff for free then absolutely sign up um you can you you can just cue them up in your email and read them on a rainy day um it's all free so do that um ban I'll come that's a great question and also thanks for joining it's good to see you I feel like we haven't chatted in a while so I'll come back to your comment in just a sec because I want to I want to close off the the topic um because I feel like I and this is good I'm not complaining by the way I feel like I've uh I've kind of derailed from uh getting through the the key points here um and then and then I'll I'll take more questions so Buran yours is yours is a really good one and I like that so thanks for asking that so the second part I want to talk through is from a Junior's perspective is like is help and mentoring and I said this earlier in the Stream if you're like how the heck am I supposed to do that as a junior I'm only Junior um I said this earlier I have seen already multiple times this year where Junior developers have been uh demonstrating helping and mentoring others so there's a couple different scenarios not all them will apply to you maybe none of them do but uh you can think through examples that are related to this first example um I have had on two teams now at Microsoft I have had people that were brought on to the team either right before me or right after so they're also very new to the team just like me right so I come in at the principal level because that's my role at Microsoft and then there are Engineers that might be h as Junior through intermediate right around the same time as me now the junior Engineers maybe some of them start and they're going through getting onboarded and we kind of do the thing that I think is really good for documentation but we have onboarding docks if they're at a date great you can be the person that helps the next person on board awesome update the documentation right otherwise it's going to stay stale forever now what ends up happening is that inevitably someone else on boards after and what's really cool is even someone that's Junior right I have seen Junior developers on the team help onboard more senior members that are joining the team so their their levels are different and the junior is able to help guide the new person joining the team and it's awesome for a couple different reasons one is that not only do they help the new person joining the team where they can guide them through something something right so they are literally assisting them helping enable them get to be up and running faster more effectively so truly helping them not only that but they're reinforcing what they think they know and I recommend this for everyone um you if you want to be selfish when you're like helping people when you help other people it gives you an opportunity to explain things in a way that they need to understand and that can really help you because you might go to explain something and real I don't know what the heck I'm saying like I don't know it as well as I thought I did um this has absolutely happened to me absolutely especially when joining new teams I'm learning things I go to help my employees and I'm like now I don't know this as well as I thought so then I'm like you know what we're going to go learn this together like it's okay right and I'm just open and transparent about it but you can help reinforce your own understanding that's part one part two is you might not onboarding someone that's new to the team but you might be a junior working in a particular spot of your product or service okay so you're working on some features or some bug fixes and you're getting some consistency in that area and you're kind of doing like I think a lot of not always but I think there's usually a focus to or a goal let me use the word goal there's a goal to focus in a particular area or give someone more breadth and coverage um I like getting people onboarded to a product and service by doing a little bit of both so high level understanding of a broader area and then getting them to focus on a key area and that way they feel like they're building some momentum with it now what can happen is if you have someone else on the team again regardless of level you might be a junior and you've been focused in area X now someone else has to go look at area X but guess what you've already been working there you're just a junior what do you know right but you know about area X that's for sure at least potentially more than the other person who needs to start touching that bit of the code so you can go help guide them through it you might not have more technical knowledge than they do but you might know more about area X than they do so you can walk them through it explain things right you have this opportunity to be able to help out others so couple examples there's some more that are like less Technical and truly um I have seen uh whether they're junior or just new to the team I've seen some of the new employees kind of form like little support groups for each other uh especially with remote work and stuff like that um it could be challenging if people are more isolated so I think it's a good opportunity um to be able to kind of help each other out um kind of build like a sense of identity like hey like it's we're new it's cool like we're going to learn together um and you help each other out so I think that there's plenty of opportunities as a junior where you can be helping and guiding others you could even be guiding you know you might be say a year into working at a company so you have one year of experience you're still Junior but like what about all the new people that are joining the company could you be helping guide them through their first year like what what's their first month look like they're going to be scared right they've never they've never worked in this company before maybe they've never had a job before and you have a year experience there so you know a bunch more than they do about the company like can you give back and can you try helping them so there's there's so many opportunities like this and I think as long as you stop thinking like I must be senior I must have years and years of experience or um or saying like I only know a little bit about this yeah you might only know a little bit but that knowledge could be so valuable for someone else that has none of it so you could be the person that goes and helps them get that next ahead so those are a couple of different ways that I think Juniors can lead into some leadership traits I know those are only a couple of examples but you can try to extrapolate that thought process and see how that might be applicable for you or if you know a junior you could maybe guide them through some of that and say hey look like you know these these are some things you could try out if you want to demonstrate that you have some of these traits so I hope that's helpful but let me get back to some of the chat uh I'll probably do a couple more questions and wrap things up here on the Stream So I did want to say thanks to everyone uh I it makes me like genuinely happy and excited to see like questions and stuff coming in in the chat so thanks I joke that like if I just wanted to talk to the camera I would just make the YouTube video and send it off to the editor but I'd much rather have a conversation with you and and have the back and forth so it's just a little unfair cuz I'm the only one with the microphone and uh everyone else has to to type it so sorry um so Buran how do you give constructive Comet to beginner under per underperforming in the team um okay uh the way that I would recommend this is and some people disagree with this I know some people have like a like a tough love kind of approach um I'm just not that way uh I think that people that a lot of the time when I hear people talk about like a tough love approach I feel like they're not acknowledging that um they're not acknowledging that some people don't like being communicated with in a certain way and they're probably thinking like oh it's tough love they got to suck it up but really they're just being an so sorry I had to say it so uh I don't love the tough love kind of approach but I would probably start by trying to understand so someone's underperforming Okay cool so they're seemingly not meeting an expectation that's been put in place well what is the expectation first of all and I don't need the details on this this is just general so understanding what is the expectation placed on this individual number one do they understand that expectation number two uh I would love to hear from them like what's going on right not not leading with the hey you're messing up or like hey you're not meeting the you're not meeting the deadlines no I want to know what's up how's life been how are you finding the work is it engaging is it interesting is it challenging is it too challenging are you feeling like you're blocked I want to know how that individual is doing if if I built trust and respect with them right not everyone I don't expect this of people but like hey like you know how's uh how are things going outside of work I don't need the details necessarily right but how are things going because you might start to realize when you listen to people more that there's a lot more information that comes out and you can learn where to kind of direct the focus so someone might look like they're underperforming because they're um they're not focused or they're laate on stuff and then you might listen a little bit more and go oh this person has some serious stuff going on a side work some serious stuff so instead of being like Oh I think I got to coach them on X or Y you might go oh I actually think what would help this person the most is like they need a little bit of space they actually need like a day off they need to go catch up on something because they've been so distracted with something outside of work glad we talked about it let me show them that I care and I acknowledge it give them a day off whatever it happens to be let them come back rejuvenated small example sometimes one day off doesn't fix anything at all but hopefully you get the idea so listening to what's going on someone might say I don't understand anything I'm doing and you might go oh we put someone into something that's too challenging for them someone might really understand what's going on and they're like I'm so disengaged because this work is so uninteresting to me and it's really hard for me to focus someone might say I love the work that I'm doing and I think it's super cool and I think there's a lot of value but I am so blocked by other people that I've lost all interest in trying to drive this forward because anything I try gets me stuck and then I'm just waiting I'm sitting around waiting for people to do my poll requests the build takes 3 days we got to deploy over 2 years like I don't want to be doing this it doesn't matter how cool the tech is this sucks but you don't know this unless you listen to people so my first suggestion is listen try to understand what's going on and then from there trying to level set on what the expectations actually are so you talk with them and you hear a little bit about they're disengaged let's say they're hey like um this works challenging it's a good challenge but like um you know I'm I'm finding like I'm a little bit distracted okay well um you know what could we could we talk through what the distractions look like like what's that actually mean in practice um kind of walk through that let them know that you're there to support them because you want them to succeed I think that's key you don't want to say to people like you're screwed like buckle up sorry I got to tell tick Tok that I'm still here thinks I'm not um it's about trying to let people know that you want them to succeed so building that up and then saying cool okay so now that we know um and I want to be clear because you don't have to run away from it you want to be clear just so you know expectations are X like this is it's not just you know not just my opinion this is actually expectations for the role of the company I just want to let you know that currently um we're not we're not seeing that and I want to make sure that we can get that up to par I want to make sure that I'm working with you hearing from you understand what's going on so that we can make that better right it's not a matter of like isolating the person making them feel bad uh again the tough love thing I think is just bull crap uh in in a lot of situations where and if you disagree with that that's totally cool but um I really hope you understand like your level of trust and respect with that person because that will backfire so fast and if you want to know how I know it's because I end up having to manage the people who have had had those conversations from people who thought they were doing a good job with the tough love now that's my thing to deal with my with my employee so um I've seen it so ban I hope that helps um yeah I would try to listen and then set the expectations for them and then work with them to make sure that they're trending in the right direction being clear about expectations following up Ryan okay so you might have clarified this earlier but I don't remember when you were saying Junior do you mean Junior in the job title and his experience Junior some other way mostly job title and um with that said experience so yeah to be transparent when I'm saying Junior it's like uh mostly someone who is Junior in their overall experience not necessarily like um not like hey I'm a a senior or principal but I am new to the team for the most part I'm trying to say hey I'm Junior as and I only got a little bit of experience in the industry so hopefully that helps um now do some of those things apply to people that are just new on the team perhaps so uh it's not like it can't be applicable but I'm primarily talking about people that are junior in their overall experience okay um I don't see any other questions rolling in so so I'm going to do I'm going to start doing my sign off but of course if you guys have more questions just Blast away in the chat because I want to make sure I can get through them before I sign off um let me see though we'll go full screen so again this is the newsletter it's got my stupid face on it that's me my bald head cuz I'm bald now um bald by choice now because I I proactively shaved my head before it it got the best of me uh but this is the newsletter it's on substack so if you want you can check it out um there's a bunch of bunch of articles in fact there are 71 of them but again if you're not interested in the older ones that are paywalled after a month you can absolutely subscribe for free and get all the new ones going forward um I'm only going to be pay Walling the the archive ones so not to worry um I do have a podcast um I got another episode I was going to release it Thursday and then someone was like by the way it's Thanksgiving and I forgot I live in the US now so um it's Thanksgiving in Canada we've already had our Thanksgiving so I forgot but um this is the podcast so let's see I think I can copy that I can put that into the chat um I have yeah new episode coming I'll probably do it released next week instead so I'll do that um code commute I already gave a shout out earlier here uh to this um it's crazy some of the videos on this channel I only got like over just over 300 subscribers here but some of these videos are doing way better than like my main Channel like to give you an example this video from two days ago like 300 almost 360 views the video I posted today on my main channel was like 70 views and I like paid to have it edited and paid for a thumbnail and this is just me driving around like an idiot I don't drive like an idiot I'm just kidding but I'm talking about software engineering stuff um if you want to check that out go ahead it's kind of like this so if you like this format um that's what you're going to get except me driving and getting mad at people in in traffic because I don't like commuting so um that's code commute uh my primary channel is Dev leader so if you have not oh it says I'm live right now imagine that um this is where all my my edited videos are and stuff so you can go check those see these thumbnails way better these are way better my editor makes these now these are my old ones look how crappy these are I got to go back and change these these are real bad these ones are good except my bald head but it's not changing staying bald um finally courses um obligatory so if you want to check out my courses um um where are mine there we go let's go to the author and I'll put the referral code in here so when I drop it in the chat the referral code doesn't help me if you're buying my chuses but if you want to check out the other courses on dome train because you like them better than mine the referral code helps me but the coures I have um I have two that I've done with Ryan Murphy because if you're like Nick I'm not a c developer I don't care good news these two are absolutely nothing to do with C so getting promoted as a software engineer is a career Focus course and nailing the behavioral interview is another um the other thing that I will mention is that we have another one coming very soon and we have courses for the next four months or something that we're releasing um so there's plenty coming up so we got those if you're interested in career development all of my Dome train fores going forward will probably be career focused because I think that's where I offer the most value uh I love programming and CP and.net but I I'm an engineering manager and I think that I can offer you more value in in other ways with that said though C stuff I got course on reflection I got a course on refactoring uh refactoring you can consider General but it's with all C examples and if you're like C sounds cool but I know nothing about it these two right here getting started and the Deep dive um there's 11 hours together between those two and um should get you totally started on writing C code so I think that's it I see no more questions coming in in the chat um last note usually on Tuesday mornings I will do my live stream for coding live except tomorrow and there's a good reason uh so I've been doing cross fit and I'm real bad at it because I come from bodybuilding I'm a way better bodybuilder than I am a crossfitter but they're bench pressing tomorrow and I'm not missing bench press at CrossFit so um so I'm skipping the live stream so I can go bench press but I'll probably reschedule and do a day later this week um I might even do two like the two Thanksgiving holiday days and just do them in the morning um Ryan I am uh I am not doing a course on Blazer but there is an awesome course on on Blazer on dome train so if you take that link with the referal code and you click it if you go to the courses and um if you check it out they have a course on Blazer there all the all the authors on dome train are are professionals uh that that use this stuff regularly so uh if you're taking a course on dome train you can trust that the person that put it together is like literally Lally living and breathing that stuff so I would highly recommend it uh I would love if I could say hey like take my course but no um I will be putting out more YouTube videos building stuff in Blazer though it's something that I need to pay more attention to I think the technology is awesome um because I'm terrible at frontend development so that enables people like me to be able to stick with something like CP and.net and actually make some stuff with a with a front end that doesn't totally suck so um it's pretty exciting okay I think that's it so um if I don't see you later this week in the morning for a coding live stream I hope to see you next Monday at the same time so thank you so much everyone for joining I do appreciate the questions um yeah if you have other thoughts and stuff ping me on social media if you want something talked about in code commute instead send me a message happy to chat through it and I appreciate youall being here so take care