Acting, Improv, And Software Engineering - Interview With Rita Iglesias

What does acting, improv, and theater have to do with software engineering? Well, a lot more than I originally expected before this interview. Hi, my name is Nick Coantino and I'm a principal software engineering manager at Microsoft. In this interview, I was joined by Rita Iglacius who explained to me all of her experience going through and organizing a theater for about 8 years before becoming a developer. Now, Rita is very curious and loves to solve problems and ended up stumbling upon coding when purchasing a course and then realized for herself that she really loved it. Now, if those sounds like two completely different worlds, it's because they probably are on paper when you're going from doing acting and theater work into trying to write software. But as you'll see in this interview, there are so many awesome skills that she was able to acquire from being able to run a theater and doing improv work and acting to being able to carry over into software development. I personally learned a ton from this interview and I think that you're going to get a lot of value from it as well. So sit back, enjoy, and I'll see you next time. I don't know how early you'd like to start, but if you want to give us some background for >> at some point in time, you know, you were going through school and figure out your career path and then things changed. Like I don't know where you want to start, but giving us some background would be totally awesome. >> Yeah, let's try to summarize. So, it's not my best skill. Um, basically, I wanted to be an actress since I remember. Like I always say that to my parents like I want to act and blah blah blah blah and I'm very extroverted and passionate person. So for me it makes sense like okay is the thing that you need to do but at the same time I love maths too but I think because not specifically math I love to solve things like you know like be >> very productive and just figure it out. That's the the thing. It's not the numbers in particular that do it for you, but like the problem solving is very interesting. >> Yeah, it's the problem solving thing. There's something there that is so satisfying to me. I love it. >> So, basically, I always wanted to be an actress. And also, I love music. So, I studied violins for 10 years, I think. >> Yeah. From 8 to 18 years. And after that, when I was 18, I studied performing arts at the university. And after a while, basically, I had my own theater company. And it was like similar to Saturday Night Live, but without money. >> Basically, we did a show, one new show per week. >> Uhhuh. And we did the scripts, we did the we basically we rent the place, we we did everything. It was crazy. But those years were amazing. I mean the best memories ever. We we were I don't know eight years doing that. Like one show, one hour and a half hour show per week completely new. It was >> eight years. >> Yeah. A a lot a lot of time. Yes. That's incredible. Holy. Wow. >> Yeah. And it was Yeah, it was basically we live together in the same apartment. It was like I don't know almost a religion. >> That's Yeah, that's incredible. That's like It sounds like chaotic but exciting and fun. And I'm assuming you must have really loved the people that you were working with and living with because or else that wouldn't have been able to to work. So that's Yeah, that's fascinating. >> Yeah. And it was super fun because you know you had to learn new scripts per week and >> the guy that write that dro the scripts basically sometimes he ran out of ideas because you know it's impossible. So he had the scripts on Monday or Tuesday and we need to act on in front of a lot of people on the day before >> or the day after. Sorry. Sometimes people don't like to think that, right? They're like, "Oh, like, you know, if I can avoid doing hard things and kind of get by, but it's like if you go through periods where you build up this resiliency, maybe in the moment you're not thankful for it because it's chaotic and it's hard and it's difficult, but when you reflect on it, it's like, man, like that really helps. It truly does help shape like what you're able to to do." So, >> definitely. But also at the same time, you know, it's acting. So at least here in Spain that there is no much uh industry as in the states for instance you need to have a side a side job. It's like you need to be a waitress. This is part of the experience or something else. I worked also in escape room. >> I was like a game master. Yeah. A lot of a lot of fun stuff. So I remember one day after a very tough way tough day in the restaurant that I thought like okay uh I'm 27 and I don't know if I'm going to be able to you know keep still doing this when I know in 10 years because it's super super hard >> for for my body basically >> it's a lot of energy a lot of time it's it's demanding right and like it's it was I'm assuming enjoyable but at the same time like because it's so much like >> Yeah. >> It's so much. >> So yeah. And also overall for a person that is hard I'm I'm not the best person to say no. So for me it was like a nightmare. And yeah, basically I tried I also love to in the summers when I was studying and and I love to try courses about things in general because I love to learn new things and I discovered basically by chance programming and I was like oh that's so fun. I love it. Yeah. And at that time it was like I think three or two years before the boot camp thing you know like there there was a time when some sadly there were like I don't know boot camps everywhere. >> Everything's a boot camp. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. >> So, I didn't know how to find I mean there's there were resources there on the internet, but I didn't know how to find that resources. So, I my brother-in-law is a programmer. So, I asked him like, "Okay, give me I'm I did this course. I love it." So, I wanted to try because why not? And yeah basic basically he designed it to me like a path and yeah it was a very hard path they yeah in in fact he told me like I thought that you will never do that I didn't >> Were you surprised were you surprised to hear that from him? No, basically not because I know that when when you're if you are starting from a scratch alone by yourself is the be the very beginning is super tough. It's super tough because you need to you know do this brain switch or there is a moment when your brain is like suddenly you get it right >> and this first year even years are super super super hard. So yeah, basically he gave me a computer science specialization that I it took me almost two years to finish that and I was like what is that algorithmic thinking all the right instead of you know do some HTML and he says in JavaScript at the beginning that is at least you can see something >> right >> and I think for a lot of people that's very rewarding to be able to say like I'm going to make some changes and all of a sudden right in front of your eyes you're like there it is. So if you're not experiencing that in the beginning I can imagine you're like okay what what what the heck is the point of me doing this right? >> Yeah and I didn't studed math. So for me, I was like, "Oh my god, what I I remember to search on Google like what is the symbol in maths that it looks like in something with bad words like but I'm very I'm very insistent, you know, like I I always try. I never give up. This is my thing. So I just keep going, keep going, keep going." And I was like working at the theater company and also in the restaurant at the same time. So it was hard but >> sure >> I discovered that I love that and I wanted to you know I was like studying for three years more or less and after that I found my first job. >> Awesome. What what did that look like to go like that transition? So you're taking and by the way I should stop to say like that's awesome. very incredible and I hope that you're very proud of yourself for kind of sticking through that learning period because it it doesn't happen overnight, right? And I think for most people it doesn't happen overnight and people seem to have this expectation. >> I'm not saying boot camps are a bad thing, but a lot of boot camps advertise like, hey, just stick with us for a couple of months or something and all of a sudden you have it. >> Impossible. That's not >> doesn't work that way. >> No. >> So, I think yeah, I wanted to say like I hope you are proud of yourself. That's very awesome for sticking through that. But what did the transition look like? So, you're building up all these skills and experiences. You you have a lot going on with work already and you're kind of I'm I'm assuming in your mind you're kind of preparing yourself to say okay like when am I ready to make this this transition? So, >> what did that look like to say I feel confident enough to do this? And the second part to that question I guess is like how did you come across the the first job? >> Well, I've never felt confident. Basically, this is the short summary. So, I think that here >> my my brother-in-law played a very important role because yeah, I I told him like he's my sensei, you know, because for me it was like the the when I was very frustrated or I wanted to give up, I talked to him and he was like, "No, you you must go." Oh, come on. You can do it. I believe in you. Because yeah, he was very surprised that I finished that first specialization in computer science and he was like, "Okay, she likes it." So, >> yeah. Okay. Yeah. If you're going to stick with it, okay, I guess I guess you're going to do it. >> Yeah. Basically, after that, I learned command uh command uh yeah, command line and HTML and some CSS and a lot of small things here and there. And after a while he found um well he told me that there is a job super close to your house that was like near super close it was like the destiny and basically I wrote that company because I didn't want to do that first of all I I I didn't fail I didn't feel ready >> okay >> at all >> that's like so you had already answered me saying Like I didn't feel confident. So yeah. Okay. You did not feel ready. Okay. >> No, that's the thing. No, never. But I'm very used to, you know, do things even if I think that I'm not ready. It's like impro. You just need to jump into the pool. Let's see. >> Let's see. We >> It's almost like what's the worst that could happen, right? I think that it's >> it sounds kind of funny, but I think Yeah. like some of your your skills from your your career up to this point, they had literally trained how you think about things to be able to say, "Yeah, like if I I'm just going to go down this path and you you respond to it and you come up with new scenarios and you just keep moving forward." So, in this situation, it was like, "I'm not ready, but truly, what is the worst that could happen, right? And just go for it and see what happens." >> Yeah. Let's go for it. See what happens and let's you will figure it out. I think this is the the the this concept is self efficacy I think is the word there is the belief that you have in your own skills you know and I think this is one of the things that stop people the most and it's like no you can do it >> you need to believe that you can do it and it sounds like a naive or something but it's it's true because that thing is blocking you completely >> I I can I can say 100% % I experience that where I hold myself back from things. >> And I've talked about this a lot online where >> like I have this problem where I acknowledge that if I put myself into an uncomfortable situation, I will probably learn so much and thank myself after. But I'm like, nope, it's uncomfortable. Like I'm going to steer away from that. But if something forces me into it, then I'm like, oh man, like this was actually such a good experience. So I I totally totally relate. >> Definitely. If you force you to be in the comfortable zone all the time, >> yeah, >> you will grow super fast. Like it's the best way to grow and at the end I I I tell you I I love to do that. I love to be in this uncomfortable zone. I don't know why, but I sadly I love that. And it's like kind of adrenaline thing. >> That's good though. I feel like like I wish and I I say this very truthfully. I wish that I felt like that because I I have this fear that like that by not doing that enough that I'm missing out on so much and I I have the truly have this fear of being like when you get so complacent over time like you don't realize how much that creeps in and you're like it's been eight years or something like did I did I just miss out on like I don't know like six of those years I could have been switching to something else and and just learning and growing and experiencing so many more things. And this is also related with something that we use a lot of in active or in acting or improv there is remember how to play the same way that you when you were a child and >> you play and you believe in your character a lot it's the same thing I mean what's the worst thing that can happen nothing and you are playing you are not saving lives so we are not doing something super important and we can't just yeah like let's try it's the same feeling that that you have when you are playing the >> I like that that's that's interesting right it's like uh you know we get a little bit older and all of a sudden we start going like no that's silly like that that that doesn't make sense it's silly but we did it as kids and I I'm assuming that and I don't I'm not I'm not into psychology enough to understand this but I'm assuming it's something to do with like um like judgement from others or like this fear of failing and like what's this going to look like and >> if we if we had the ability to kind of block that all out and just say like >> I'm going to try it. >> Yeah, it's that and it's the same feeling that we have with video games. A lot of people talk about that because when you are playing a video game, you know that if you I don't know if you don't pass the the you fail or you fall off in a in a in a hole, you're going to you can't restart the game and that's it. So you are not afraid >> of making that mistake because you can't >> you have to try it and then see oh oh I made it over I jumped and it worked or oh no I fell in okay let me do it again and ret time my jump and just get better at >> try another thing this is the same thing it's the same thing nobody cares you will you will you will not remember this in five years so >> yeah that's such a good reminder um okay and sorry I that was My fault. I I derailed a little bit. Uh, so you you you weren't you did not feel ready. >> Yeah, let's recap. Let's recap. >> Ended up applying. So you wrote the company. >> Yeah, I wrote the company >> to ask for an internship >> like, okay, >> hello, I'm Breita. I'm very interested in this thing. I would love to work because I am I felt that I need to learn how to work in a team because at the end we are not working alone never. So we need to learn that and how to use get and you know bigger bigger projects not only you know play and basically at the very beginning they answer me like ah yeah you are a very yes it was a yes but it was yes but not now and I was like okay let's wait I wait never nothing happened and I sent another email and they told me like well we cannot have you as an intern because it's not legal because >> Oh interesting. >> Yeah, you are not in I studied everything like in free resources on the internet. I you know I don't have anything. I I was not in a school or something. So yeah, and yeah, I was very sad and my sensei told me, okay, they have an open position for a front end developer. And I was like, no, they they just reject me as an intern. How am I going to be, you know, like just asking? Okay, let's let's do >> Yeah. No intern. Okay, give me the full time then. Yeah, it doesn't make sense, you know. And I was like, this is so embarrassing. No. And he was like, "Yes, you're going to do it. Try >> what's what's the worst that's going to happen?" >> Yeah. Yeah. And he was like, "No." He goes, "Yes, do it." And and I I did it basically. >> And And >> yeah, I I wrote them a message and I, you know, because it was super weird. So I told them like I saw that you have an open position so let can I do the test just to practice and see how it goes like just to learn something and they told me yes. So >> okay >> I did the thing >> and it was pretty decent. Not the best, but it was pretty decent. And I wrote a very good and very wellplained rhythm >> and that yeah that made the track. >> Ah okay. >> Yeah. The very good rhythmic with all the things like I specify okay I follow this best practices for HTML for instance and for CSS I follow this guide. Of course, I have my sensei and he was sending me all the good resources like if you want to write good HTML, follow this guide or follow and I read all the guys. I was like super focused >> and yeah, basically they told me okay uh let's do an internship and yeah they like hired me but with a weird thing. It was well So, they found a way because I'm assuming they weren't lying to you when they said there was probably some truly like some whether legal or complicated issues with labeling an internship. I'm not familiar with labor laws in in all sorts of different countries, but I can absolutely see that being an honest response. like we literally can't label it as such. But so they were able to find some way to >> navigate some way creative way >> to hire me but not as a full style engineer and yeah and I was three months there. I think the toughest three months in my life because I was super, you know, trying to understand everything and learn as much as I can >> and yeah after three months they hired me as a full time front end and yeah I started to do front end because before that in my courses I only uh did Python and basically back and >> yeah you started almost the opposite way that a lot people today. And I say a lot of people just because especially online, I'm seeing a lot of people like front-end boot camps, but you started literally backwards from that, which is cool. >> Yeah. And I was there for almost three years. >> Wow. >> Yeah. And it was super nice because this company is um product digital studio. So basically they create MVPs for companies in the in Canada and the US. And it's crazy like I was in two or three projects at the same time. I mean the rhythm it was high but it was nice because I could build from a scratch a lot of different apps. So >> right >> it it's nice if you want to learn have the yeah the possibility to do that is awesome because you can build a chat and you can build a store and you can build so many different things. And after yeah I was there for three years I end up like leading my small team but because but it's it was not it wasn't a leadership position. It was more like uh we need somebody to you know organize a little bit this mess >> right >> and and because we had to take a lot of we had to make a lot of product decisions like we were building MVPs basically so we and very fast so we need to cut things and you know talk with people and see okay this is not worth it let's do yeah break figure it out basically and that's my So, >> I was just thinking when you were explaining before your your work history sort of with the the theater company, right? This >> this sort of like I I don't want I don't mean to call it chaotic as a bad thing. I just mean there's a lot going on. So when I say chaotic, I don't mean it to be condescending or anything, but yeah, you have something chaotic that you've been living through for eight years and navigating and it's working and then you're put into software and when you're uh so I'd spent a lot of my career before Microsoft doing prototyping at companies and um very very similar where you're like hey we got to try it. We got to move in this direction figure out do we cut it? Do we keep building? Do we this the technology is proving itself but we wrote it in a bad way. Let's let's actually go rewrite it properly. It truly is like this like kind of chaotic experience that you need to organize. So I thought it was as you were explaining that I was like I could absolutely see that with your previous experience not in software it would translate very well. >> Yeah. Yeah. Basically. Yeah. And also you know with the pressure and all of this I was just like chill guys we we can do it. >> Yeah. But you you kind of uh you you mentioned it wasn't like a formal leadership position, but you basically stepped up like sort of informally to be able to help do a lot of the driving and organizing and and reducing the chaos for other people. >> Yeah. Yeah. Because you know Yeah. the rhythm was was hard to follow and Yeah. Not everybody >> was so comfortable with that rhythm and it's it's it's normal. I mean if you are used to a normal regular rhythm >> more structure yeah >> yeah it's it's hard and after that I started in a topic that is the company that I'm working now and basically it was a completely switch because it's a product company >> okay >> and it's a startup so we are still in the startup vibes but it's a product company. So I think for me the the rhythm is more calm. >> Okay. >> And at the very beginning I was like I feel that I'm not working. What's going on? >> Even though it is a startup that's a incredible difference in pacing, right? Cuz most startups I would I think most people would say it it always feels chaotic until until suddenly you don't feel like you're a startup anymore. But uh yeah, that's a pretty >> it must have been pretty dramatic in terms of uh the pacing at the previous company if you felt like going to a startup was even slower. >> Yeah. But it's it's nice and yeah we are also prototyping things and trying to >> you know get into the the market fit thing. >> Mhm. And yeah by basically I started well in the other company I was um working only in the front end because they had like front end and back end super separate and >> Oh interesting. Okay. >> Yeah. And I think yeah one year before I left that company I was like okay I'm because we also worked with the same stack always. So we we could we could build faster because we had like a standardized way to do things and I started to feel comfortable with that way of working. So I started to you know yeah I was bored like I need something something else please. So I started like to learn >> a Rails course, the >> famous Rails tutorial >> because I wanted to, you know, understand better what's going on in the back end of things because I felt that I I I need that in order to build be even better in the front end. you need to know something about the back end because you can understand okay if I I need that but can I ask for that it makes sense these kind of things >> right >> and basically in my current company I I left my previous company because of that because here I can do everything and that's something that I love we don't have here this distinction between front end and back end we are just product engineers >> and We we do infrastructure back end, front end, whatever. And yeah, I started here and I think in two months I was already like doing things in the back end with go because I was like if you if you let me do things I can I do things and Yeah. >> Yeah. Then you'll do them. >> Yeah. And I love it because this first well at at the beginning was super was very very difficult for me because it's go and for instance for me the pointers I was like what's that I don't I don't get it >> after spending more time in the front end the concept of a pointer is probably like wait a second what's that again? Yeah. And I did Python in the past, but not any language that was so close like the so low level and >> but yeah uh you know a lot of things to learn but I have like my ways to approach that and instead of see the the entire code base that is already there and you need to do something and you're like okay I don't understand anything I enter in this play mode that is like okay we have things here >> sure >> I need to do something so let's find something that looks similar >> and try to understand and let's copy paste and try to you know I love to first trying to figure it out by myself >> looking for something similar >> and after a while when my code is full of errors and it's not compiling and it's a mess. I I ask somebody that knows like okay >> let me first explain my reasoning behind my solution. So I I start with explaining like okay I think this line of code not sure but I think this is doing something blah blah blah blah explain everything and after that the person explains to me the solution like okay you cannot do that because of blah blah blah or yes you were almost right you know instead of asking for the solution first or the way or just yeah try to figure it out yourself even if you are making up things or the code is not even compiling I think that that's a better way to learn because the thing that they the the expertise is going to explain to you is going to stick in your brain forever because you did the the job that reason you know the reasoning that you this is the the moment where your when your brain is storing things. If you just like it's it's the same thing as you are not learning when you are reading something. You are learning when you are thinking about the thing that you are reading and connecting that with >> you're applying it right. you're making the behavioral changes and applying what you're what you've read that becomes the learning otherwise and people experience this all the time uh you know they'll call it like tutorial hell or people will say like hey tell me what book to read to learn programming and it's like it's not that tutorials and books won't work but they are not nearly as effective if you don't go start applying the things that you're that you're you know that are going into your head because what'll happen is your brain goes That's neat. Thank you. And then you'll move on to another topic and at some point your brain's like we're not using this information. So like >> yeah. Yeah. Basic I think that you know there are two things that are super useful to learn new when you need to approach something super new like for instance like a new code base of back end if you never did the did back end. And one are like try things >> even if you don't know how to do it do it and let's see. And the other thing is try to explain the thing even if you think that you are not ready because our brain it is better at recovering information that storing information like when for instance when you are studying for an exam >> and you try and you read your papers I don't know 20 times this doesn't make sense. It's better to read once and then explain that thing. >> Try to explain try to recover. Even if you are not ready and you you don't remember everything, the second time that you read that thing, it's already there. It's it's kind of magic. I discovered that when I was in the theater company and when I was studying my my scripts, >> right? Basically, I always told my boyfriend, give me the the the what is how can I say this in English? Like if I'm a character and you are the other one and you give me the answer so we can have a conversation. >> Oh yeah, like the dialogue, right? Yeah, the lines. Yeah, >> the lines. So give me the lines. And my boyfriend was like, you read that script once, you don't know the lines. And I was like, >> give me the lines. And and yeah. And I was like trying to remember like I I read once and I was like no how was that line and give me the first letter the first letter trying to guess all the time and that effort made me learn the lines faster because also that effort is important because the next time your brain knows that that thing is important. She she she was doing so so much effort. We need to remember that and it's so true and I remember okay this makes more sense that try to read read the script for 20 times >> but it it sounds very similar right to uh to to reading a book or watching a tutorial and then basically immediately in your case with lines right immediately going into let me let me practice it and it's like >> you might you might be acknowledging to yourself I I'm gonna fail at this I'm not going to make it all the way through but I'm going to to try and see how far I get and then basically it's this action of like taking information in because you're reading the lines and then how do I practice it right away? And I I mean it's I I I acknowledge it's not the exact same thing like it's not typing it out or writing it out but you're truly trying to put it into practice immediately. And I think I think that that's a great comparison because uh even though it's not identical, I think it's a good analogy for it. Um, you said something else that I thought uh I really wanted to kind of go back and touch on cuz I think it's incredibly important and you kind of were talking through your problem solving process and uh I I think that a lot of people miss out on this especially if they are a junior or even if they're not junior but they're like they're new to a code base or an area. It's something that as an engineering manager in particular, I've had a lot of difficulty trying to explain to newer individuals, which is the goal is not to get stuck and then ask for help and someone to give you a solution. Um, and I have to coach even the engineers giving the solutions. I'm like, hey, look, like if you don't want this person to keep coming back to you and always just getting the answer from you, you need to back up from this for a second. So, you don't just give them the answer. And the people that are asking for help shouldn't just be expecting the answer. So I love that you said I'm gonna go in and just try it. And yeah, you might get to a point where none of your code's compiling, but literally you went through all of this work to just try. You get somewhere and then once you're totally stuck and you're like, "Okay, I've tried a bunch of stuff out." being able to explain to someone else here's everything I've tried for for folks that are going to be watching this and listening like if you imagine that you are say you're a more senior engineer and someone comes to you and asks for help how much more like how much better is it going to feel if someone says hey like I need help on this here's all the work I've tried here's my thought process my explanation can you give me some help versus someone saying hey I haven't tried anything can you just like tell me what to do >> you're going want to probably spend more time with the person investing their effort into it. And so not only that, but your other point about like that is the learning process. And often I will tell people I don't think there's any shortcuts like to being an expert in software engineering or in anything really. You need to be practicing. But I guess if I could say there's one shortcut, it's acknowledging that you literally need to be trying things and failing at them. Like I think the sooner that you acknowledge that and you're like, "Okay, I just have to be doing this, the sooner that you're spending time doing that versus," okay, where's the next shortcut? Because there just aren't shortcuts. You can't just press the button or read the one magic article and suddenly you're an expert. You just have to spend the time doing it. So, I just I love that I guess like very early on for you, you just you found this and you're like, "This is what works." And I wish more people kind of like fell into that because that's great. >> Yeah. And most of the cases when you are explaining your reasoning sometimes you just sit like okay is that because you are you know the process of explaining something you are recovering that information for your brain. So your brain is working on that moment and when the for instance if you find a solution but you feel that it's not the best solution and you you know it like this is not performant. So we need to find there should be another thing. >> It's easier to remember the why is not a good solution if you try the bad solution first. >> If you only tried the the you know like it's it's the same thing when we studied the maths and they told you this is the formula that's it >> that's it memorize the formula that's it. And you're like no I hated that. I hated that because I didn't understand why. So I I was like, "No, I remember having fights with my with my teacher because I found a solution, >> but I didn't use the formula." And I was like, "But I found the solution, so it's it's even better." It only takes like when you're for that math example, if you're memorizing formulas, it only takes one exam to have a question where they change some of the wording around a little bit and then you're going, well, I only know the formula and I don't actually understand it. And now you're like, I I can't even answer this question because of that lack of understanding. And I'm not trying to say that like, you know, if people don't understand it, they suck. I just mean like that way of teaching to say don't worry just use the formula >> that's that's kind of like a memorization technique and it's not an understanding technique and I think there's a >> very big difference and especially when you go to apply into software engineering >> it's a very big difference because you basically have something a node in your brain that is not connected to anything so that thing is gonna disappear >> y >> it's gonna disappear nothing is connected to that and >> yeah you we just need to make connections. This is another thing that I love when you need to approach like something super big and you feel very overwhelmed. It's like I remember the first um walk through of the code base that somebody gave to me. I was all the time stopping the person and rephrasing everything like in simple words like okay is this similar trying to connect that with something that I knew like is this similar for instance this map in here is this similar to whatever I do in the front end in this part and he was like uh kind of >> enough enough first connection MVP MVP knowledge you know like this is my first connection even if I don't understand 100% because I have a lot of colleagues that I think >> we always have this conversation because they have this need to okay if I don't understand 100% everything of what I'm doing I don't feel good and it's like if you are starting in something that is huge and completely new for you you need to assume that you are not going to understand everything. >> It would be impossible, right? But you would you couldn't even take your first step because if that first step required that you knew everything like too bad like it's just not going to work. So yeah, no, I totally agree. I can I can rationalize or relate to people that are like I want to understand more. But I think as you're explaining this, you're not suggesting like I don't need to know anymore, but it's like I know enough to take my next step and by taking more steps like that over time, you will in fact start learning most of what you need to know. >> Yeah, eventually you are going to understand everything but you need to if you are blocking yourself because you don't understand a small line you you you cannot do the next step. So, it doesn't make sense, you know, and I I think I this is super important like just jump into the pool. You don't understand everything, no problem. You >> you go for it and again, nobody's going to die. So, >> yeah, that's yeah, I think it's a great way to put it. And I have a I guess a question for the these two places that you had worked at. I'm I'm I'm curious about the environment because I 100% resonate with all of the things that you're saying and I've been fortunate at least in my career where I've worked at places that that very much uh like embodied this idea of like we have trust in you like uh you know if some you mess up or whatever it's okay like we'll we'll learn from it. Um, and that's something that I've tried to take with me throughout my entire career, especially managing teams, is being like, look, like I want you to be able to take risks to fail. Like, I don't want you to basically purposefully mess things up, but like it's okay. Like, we're going to learn together. Now in the first place you worked and the place you're at now do you feel that like the environment was and maybe I don't know if it's something you observed consciously but do you feel like they set up the environment very much for you to be able to have those failure opportunities like >> h well I think that the two companies are very different because for instance in the first one it took me a while to understand because in the first company they were a lot of people that was were less experienced like younger and >> and I felt that I don't know everybody was talking super confident and yes and I was there like I don't understand anything so >> but then I realized that how is this possible this is this is something that I that I as an actress I'm very used to. We we learn to show ourselves vulnerable. You know it it's like acting is basically being a stage and show your emotions being vulnerable in front of people and this is very very hard for adults >> right >> so in this first company I was like hm how is this even possible that in a field that every day something is you know new framework new language all the time so so many new things that it's not possible to know everything how is this people so confident it doesn't make sense. So I realized >> something's not adding up. >> Yeah. So I think okay people is faking. >> Yeah. >> People is basically acting as they know everything and yeah I started my this is something that I very passionate about. let's show ourselves vulnerable because it doesn't make sense and in this company that I when I joined there were so many people with more than 10 years of experience and the CTO that is not here anymore but the CTO Ernesto is like oh my god love him I remember Ernesto in public channels saying I don't know anything about this specific specific thing who knows that and that's so important like ask in public because everybody and and also if you are a leader I think this is so important for leadership if you are a leader you need to show you need to be able to show vulnerability because >> that's what we want for other people right we want other people to be able to do it and it sounds might sound obvious when I say it out loud But you need to lead by example. If you have leadership that does not show vulnerability, that they don't know things, that it's okay to make mistakes, if they don't show it, >> how can you possibly ever expect that the people you're leading will ever do that? >> Yeah. And I I'm not going to empathize with a leader that is not vulnerable because it's this is not me. I cannot, you know, like I cannot relate to that. So, right. >> Yeah. and and in in this company it's true that there are a lot of people that are very experienced like 17 years of experience that's oh my god then an entire life for me but >> yeah they just ask in public and they are able to say I don't know that I don't know anything about that or or for instance I experience I only been working in tech for Well, almost six years, five five years, I don't remember. But sometimes I had more exper I have more experience with specific things and they ask me and we are like they treat me as an equal >> and and I think this is the the the the way this is the way because the tech field is so massive and it's basically impossible to know everything. So, >> right, >> you know, it's I think it's very important the the Yeah, the the the environment. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, and I I'm glad you kind of walk through that. That's uh that's really helpful. And I I can really appreciate that uh that vulnerability part from from leadership. And I think that the more leaders can do that. And I would even say if you if you don't have leaders at the place you're working at that are are truly embodying that, I think if you as a developer are trying to become more senior in your role, I think it's important to be able to show that because other people will look up to you and they they will emulate that behavior. So I think that's that's critical. Um I I want to be conscious of time. I want to ask you one more question if you don't mind. Um, and at this company where you have this ability to be able to do front end and back end, uh, which I think is an awesome opportunity to be able to flow between those, how do you and how do you navigate not just like latching on to one thing and being like, okay, I'm getting more comfortable with front end. I'm just going to stick to here or or with the back end like, okay, like I've been working with some of the database stuff more and more like I'm just going to stay here because it's it's comfortable. Uh you might be the wrong person to ask because it seems like you like you like all the challenges, but do you do you see that happening with other people and how they navigate that or any thoughts on that? >> Yeah, in fact I I I'm the wrong person to have that because I love the other you know that when I feel very comfortable I'm bored. I need to >> But yeah, you you acknowledge it, right? Like you notice it's happening and you're going, "Oh, I've been doing this a lot. Like I should I should try to do that." >> But I know that I'm I'm not the most It's not very common like >> sure >> the common thing is the opposite and I also learned that not everybody wants to do that and that's okay too. I mean there are some people that they just wanted to be in this comfortable place and okay maybe they they can push themselves a little bit and try new things but if you push them a lot >> that's dangerous >> right yeah >> that's dangerous >> comes becomes uncomfortable they're going to feel like uh suddenly it's like work is not enjoyable they're going to lose engagement like there is a balance there so um okay no I was curious curious like you you see that other people kind of have to to try and navigate this and for yourself. Oh yeah. >> And also I for I force some people to do that like I remember to you know have this conversations with some of my colleagues like okay but let's do that let's do that believe me let me super fun and and they were just not enjoying that and I was like why? Because not everybody's the same person. Come on. >> That's a good observation. Yes. Um, but I I actually it's it sounds I know you're laughing at yourself saying it, but I I actually do not think that a lot of people realize that as funny as it is to say, >> uh, like, hey, if I enjoy this and this is a good thing and it's so enjoyable for me or this is so ingrained in the way that I think, like clearly other people must think this way, right? >> When we say that out loud, it sounds kind of funny, but I think we get in this habit of doing that. So, >> yeah, because we just don't listen. Yeah, we should do that a little bit more. >> Yeah, I think Yeah. Yeah. This is also a good thing about acting that you learn how to listen people and to empathize, you know, like a little bit more. So, >> well, the improv, you must, right? Like, you need to be playing off of what other people are saying. And it's not just a matter of I heard the words you said. Like, I'm assuming I'm terrible at improv, so sorry. But I I'm assuming that you need to like be understanding the direction that someone's trying to go with something or else you might improv back and they're like, "Oh man, like you're undoing like the the direction I'm trying to >> Yeah. You learn how to read the room. Read the room is so important in all in whatever thing that you do in your life." So yeah, I think that's a good skill. >> Yeah, these I think. Okay. So, I I do want to wrap up because it's conscious of your time, but I think there were I I'm blown away by how many things in particular we were able to take from from acting, improv, and and this part of your career journey and literally see so many like very tangible connections into software engineering because it's not just writing code. It's lots of other interactions how you learn. So, I I wanted to say thank you so much for being able to like kind of shine a light on those things. Uh, Rita, where I I'll get links from you after, but people are going to want to reach out to you and find you and and see your content. Where can people find you? >> Well, people can find me on I think everywhere like Instagram, Tik Tok, Twitter, Rita_. And what else? Yeah. And basically that's it. I rita.codes is my website, my personal website, small one. And yeah, if you are in the 3D, if you're a 3D artist, we have also a company and we make Blender plugins. You can Yeah, it's diffuse studio. So, go check it out. And yeah, basically that's it. Rated >> perfect folks. >> I'm very bad. at selling myself. >> No worries. I will absolutely make sure to put links in descriptions and comments and stuff for people to check that out. So, uh, Rita, thank you so much. This is great. Uh, I I absolutely learned a ton myself. So, uh, uh, yeah, I appreciate the time. Thank you. >> Thank you for having me. Of >> course.