From Spanish Teacher to GREAT Software Engineer - Interview With David Weiss

Spanish teacher. Yeah, that's right. Today's guest is going to be a career switcher that came from being a Spanish teacher over to software engineering. And yeah, that might be surprising to you. You might not be expecting that someone's going to make a career switch that seems that dramatic. But David Weise is my guest today, and we get to hear about his journey in software engineering. He talks about how he gets into content creation in order to help share knowledge with other people as well and building businesses on the side. So, I think that you're really going to enjoy this episode. So sit back, enjoy, and I will see you next time. David, do you mind kicking us off for how you got started sort of in your developer journey? Kind of going back as early as you'd like. It doesn't have to be from the beginning, but it's up to you. >> Yeah, that's I I'm happy to talk about that, Nick. You know, I um I'm definitely do not shy away from the fact that I'm a career switcher. So I um actually used to be a Spanish teacher for a couple years um and did that. Um, so, uh, yeah, so I mean that's why, you know, I have a bachelor's degree and a master's degree in Spanish and Hispanic literature. Um, so yeah, you know, I have a lot of appreciation, I think, and respect for um, not only career switchers, but uh, you know, developers that have kind of been self-taught and >> you know, learned from books and online courses. That's kind of how I did it. Um, back in the day, uh, when I first got started, I picked up a couple books on HTML, CSS, JavaScript, um, started teaching myself those languages. And then, um, actually got enrolled in this, um, before there were boot camps, I kind of enrolled in this like online, um, web design and development program, certificate program. And so I took a number of online courses there. And, um, yeah, it was great to just get that foundation. and then um landed my first role um with a small startup in in Connecticut. Um and um you know as a as a kind of a web the title was actually web application developer. So it was kind of old school but um it was essentially full stack. So I was doing you know database development and front-end program front end um you know programming as well. And then really um you know it didn't take too long or maybe about a year or two before I really just fell in love with the front end. You know just writing CSS and um you know being able to write semantic markup in HTML and um and then around that time is when like CSS 3, HTML 5 responsive web design was coming out. So I was mobile development. And so I was kind of very like intrigued and excited to you know build a web app that could be accessible and and >> uh you know just usable across you know mobile tablet uh desktop um viewports and things like that. So um but yeah you know I I mean I I I tell people this all the time. most of my experience has been with smaller teams and startups and um I I I don't know if maybe they're you know I I've always felt like startups maybe are a little bit more um you know understanding and and and tolerant of like hiring career switchers and you know hiring people that maybe don't have that formal background like a degree in in computer science or something like that and um so you know I'm I'm grateful to you know the multiple companies I've worked worked with over the years. And um yeah, that's kind of how how I got started in tech. >> Before we continue on, this is just a quick reminder that I do have courses available on dome train. If you're just getting started in your programming journey and you want to learn C, you can head over to do train. I have a getting started in C course. It's approximately 5 hours of content taking you from absolutely no experience to being able to program in C. And after that, I have my deep dive course which will take you to the next level with another 6 hours of content so that you can start building basic applications. Head over to dorain and check it out. Let's head back to the video. That's cool. I had you I don't know if you saw the genuine surprise on my face. I had no idea that you had the the background for for Spanish. What um if you don't mind me asking, so if you're going like full on into like Spanish for education, what was sort of I maybe there wasn't like a specific moment, but did was it like a slower kind of realization for the the development side of things or was there something that came up that kind of I don't want to say forced you, but maybe enabled you or kind of opened your eyes to like doing some more like web development going, "Oh crap, like I want to maybe focus on that are. >> Yeah. I mean, you know, like, and I, you know, I've said this before, I think, publicly, and I don't have any like issues bringing it up, but, you know, like I I have tremendous respect for teachers, and I I think especially in the US, um, I mean, being a teacher is super hard and there's just a lot of, um, you know, factors that you have to deal with externally. Um, a lot of pressure. And you know, to be honest, I was, you know, teaching at a pretty affluent community in Westchester County, New York. And um it was, you know, the administrators were very um hard on teachers. The parents were very like um demanding as well, you know. Um so there was a lot of pressure and I I felt like I couldn't just focus on the subject matter of Spanish and just teach. I had to worry about um you know professional relationships with other teachers, with administrators and obviously make sure that I have um you know good relationships with parents and and things like that. And so at the end of the day, I just felt like you know as much as I love Spanish and teaching the language, there's just I just don't know if I want to be a teacher and like have to deal with all that stuff. Um, and to be honest, there was a lot of like, you know, there's you have to do a lot of preparation work. You have to do a lot of like lesson planning, grading. Um, teaching is not really one of those jobs where you can, >> um, you know, just end your day and then go home. Like a lot of, you know, a lot of teachers will do work from home. they will >> and if you have a bad day or something it you know that you can very easily bring that home and that can impact you know your mood and your relationship with your partner and things like that and so >> um yeah and so around that time is when I like I said started picking up some books on HTML, CSS, JavaScript and teaching myself and yeah I mean I think as I just slowly started to build websites and um you know became become more comfortable with coding. Um I just, you know, I was like, "Hey, I think I want to do this for a career." >> That's awesome. But I Yeah, I I have never been a teacher, but uh one of my best friends, I remember when we were, you know, kind of starting out in the workforce, his uh his wife is a teacher, and I remember her talking about how like summer's off and stuff. And and I remember thinking like that sounds like the the best, like that's got to be so easy. And uh when she was talking because I had no idea, right? when she was talking about what goes into it, I'm like, "Okay, so you're telling me that there's basic what seems like zero support. You're kind of on your own. You have to put all of this together." Um, and then even more recently, I was volunteering at a at a high school for helping with computer science and talking with the teacher, you know, before and after class, realizing like you like like you said, your day does not it's not like the the whatever the the school time is. It's like you're going home, you're now you might be grading extra stuff. You might be trying to be a little bit more open for some students to submit some stuff late just because of, you know, life happening and stuff. And yeah, >> it's it's just a lot more outside of the school time. And I had no idea. I mean, started to understand this more after being not just fresh out of school, but the more exposed that I get to talking with teachers and stuff, the more that I realize like, man, it's not it's not easy. >> Yeah. Yeah. It is not. And um you know I I mean there there there were some you know I over the years like I I knew I met and became friends with some teachers that had been in the industry for a long time and they it was you know significantly easier for them. They had a lot of >> lessons already planned and prepared and things that they could reuse. So um you know for those people I felt like it was the job was a little bit easier. But um yeah, it's it's it's very demanding and you know, I think um it's I mean like with any job, you have to prove yourself and you have to kind of um you know, just show not only your students but other teachers and administrators and parents, you know, that you can do the job and that you're qualified. And um and you know it is something that I think you have to continually get get better at uh as the years go on and and and learn new ways to um to reach students and to you know teach them and and things like that. So, >> yeah. And I'm I guess I'm curious about this because as a teacher, I am sure we've we've never talked about this, so I'm making assumptions, but I'm sure that uh when you're trying to teach a classroom, there's going to be things that you might do that are I'm going to call them like generic or apply to everyone. And then there's going to be situations when you're working with students where you're like, I need to adapt what I'm doing for this individual because sort of the I don't like using the word generic. I can't think of a better way to say it, but sort of the the broader approach is not really working with this individual. Um, did you number one is that would you say that's like true? And the second part to that is if it is, did you find any carryover with that to like kind of working with people in software development? >> Yeah, absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up actually because um yeah, you know, I think uh yeah, I think it's something that you don't realize initially as a teacher. you know, you kind of think like, okay, well, here's >> this is the the lesson of the day and this is how I'm going to teach it and um you know, it it hopefully everybody will understand it and learn from it, but you know, you you quickly learn. >> That's the happy path. >> Yeah, that's the happy path. And it you can kind of correlate that to uh to programming, I guess, if you want, you know, with the happy path when you build things out. But um yeah, you know, I think you quickly realize that um people learn in different ways and you know, sometimes your your generic message or your kind of um lesson plan for all, if you will, is is not going to resonate with everybody. And so I think um yeah, you have to you have to be willing to um in a way like diversify your your um your lessons and how and your teaching methods. Um right >> you know maybe it's maybe you do maybe it's not all lectures and maybe you do like some small group um uh like breakout sessions or you know maybe you do um you know you have like an audiovisisual component and in addition to like reading text out of a book so you know it's not just one one sizefits-all if you will right and I think that that you know recently especially in my career the past few years as I've gotten more into engineering ing leadership. I've really um come to realize like, wow, I I was leading as a teacher, you know, years ago and and I learned so much about uh what it takes to be a leader and to h and and how to, you know, effectively work with a diverse group of people on your team, on your software development team, right? Um, and I think that that, you know, when it comes to being an engineering leader, when it comes to being a manager, you know, that's something that you have to learn really quick is the fact that not everybody's at the same um skill level, not everybody is an extrovert, not everybody's an introvert. Um, you know, there's different, you know, people react differently. They have different um, you know, attitudes during team meetings maybe versus one-on-one meetings. So there's just a lot of, you know, it's it's it's really the human element of um software engineering and of working on a team at at any company, right? People are people are people. They're they're they're unique and they're different in their own right. And so um you can't just you know work with everybody the same way. You can't um you know conduct meetings the same way with everybody and expect you know um the same results, right? So, >> uh, yeah, I'm I'm, you know, in a way I'm very thankful of my time as a teacher and and, you know, just being able to draw those parallels between teaching and and kind of leading now. And, um, you know, there's Yeah, there's just a lot of lessons that I've I've taken from that. So, I appreciate that. >> Yeah. No, that's that's really cool. I I was thinking, like I said, I I've never been a teacher formally, right? And thinking about some of the the best teachers I've had, it's like one of the things that makes them really good teachers is that they actually it's like they they are leading, right? What they're doing is is teaching and they're like their goal is to help you learn information and to improve. But um I think like how they approach that in my opinion can be very applicable to to leading in general. Does not mean you need to have an engineering manager title. doesn't you don't need any title but the how you approach that the fact that it is situational the fact that there's empathy the fact that you are trying to pay attention to like basically signals of other people to go like are we breaking through on this or not um I think a lot of that is uh very applicable into software engineering I'm sure other fields and stuff too I just don't have experience outside of software engineering so >> yeah yeah for sure >> no that's awesome and so okay so you go down this path where you are now into web development. You you mentioned being able to to go to startups and I think one of the things you said I I think I agree with that that you know I don't have uh data around this to to say like this is you know matter of fact but this like openness to uh to call it like less traditional backgrounds. I don't even know what traditional is anymore. I'm calling it like you know the college university path is I'm going to say is traditional these days. I don't even know if that's true, but I I think that that's an observation I have as well. And I I don't know if it stems from the fact that, you know, maybe historically for larger companies, there's just more applicants coming in and then they have to kind of look at that and go, how do we just, you know, take a a bar that we've set and try making it like harder so that we filter through applicants. Now whether that's right or wrong in terms of the approach, I suspect something like that has happened over time where it's like I'm just making up numbers. We get, you know, 500 applicants to this job and we're not going to go review all 500. So, okay, like let's say you need, you know, 5 years of experience for your junior role or you must have a mast's or or something. they just keep doing that so that I like in theory they're increasing the quality of candidates but that's why I'm like I don't even know if that's a good way to do it but I think that's what's happening. What are your thoughts on that? >> Yeah. No, I I agree with that. And I think um I mean even you know I've seen this on LinkedIn and other social networks as well talking about like leak code like leak code being kind of um you know a lot of uh you know big tech companies use leak code in their interview process and you know whether you agree with it or not um it it is a a way to filter out candidates you know um and I mean I I've done lead code uh problems before. I've solved them. I've had them uh been asked of me in interviews and I like absolutely hate them. Um as a you know, as a hiring manager before in the past and um somebody who's been involved with interviews like in various um jobs that I've had, you know, I I I would never um I I would absolutely like, you know, steer clear of using leak code. I'd rather there's a million other, you know, coding coding exercises I'd rather do than than just that. But um but on the surface, if you look at it, you know, it is a way to filter because it does take time to it's really more about with leak code, I feel like it's more about it's not necessarily about how smart you are. It's about like how much exposure you have to solving leak code problems and like >> and and and whether you've memorized them and know different ways to to solve them, right? And and the thing that's interesting about the thing that I do find interesting about leak code problems is like a lot of times there's more than one way to solve it solve them, right? Um and so you can also kind of grade or filter people based on that as well is like okay well this you know um this solution might work but it could also be the most like costly or the slowest solution out there compared to like >> you know some other algorithm that you could use that's a little bit faster right so um yeah I mean I think that whether it's like having a computer science degree or being able to pass a a leak code problem. Um, yeah, I mean, I think when you when you're a big big tech company and you have thousands of applicants, I mean, yeah, you need ways to to filter on that and to kind of um, you know, qualify candidates, if you will. Um and I I don't I mean maybe that's why I have you know been more attracted to startups and kind of those types of workplaces because um you know I feel like I don't have to prove myself as much at least during the interview process right it's it you know they already know I don't have a computer science degree um they already know I don't have like a big tech company on my resume right and so it's more about um you know just not not only knowledge and experience with tech but also you know um just what I've been through things that I've built um you know uh exposure to different technologies frameworks um problems that I've solved and it's also about you know the the the the people side or the human side of software engineering as well right because I think that that um that also matters whether you're at a startup or a big tech company is you know Like it the reality is like as software engineers we don't just work with software engineers we work with designers we work with product managers we have to um you know communicate with directors of engineering VPs of engineering um and then sometimes we have to go outside of like the product development bubble and even talk to people in marketing or sales or other teams right so um I mean and that's that's a big reason why I focus so much on um the human side of software engineering with besides code my newsletter and a lot of content that I put out on LinkedIn it it because you know to me that um the emphasis on soft skills on people skills I think has been the a big differentiator between me and other job candidates when I've applied for interviews and then and then myself and other co-workers and teammates right like I I I you know I'm I'm I've never admitted or like acknowledge the fact that I'm the smartest engineer in the room like I I rarely am or consider myself to be that. But um when it comes to you know being able to collaborate effectively with other teammates um being able to communicate, being able to run meetings, being able to like >> you know take a big epic or project and break it down into small chunks so that we can um you know attack it as software engineers and build it all those you know non-technical things that engineers do is what kind of I think has um helped me you know continue to have a career in in tech. This is like thanks for bringing that up because I think that's one of the things I find that I spend a lot of time on as a software engineering manager is uh obviously there's going to be situations especially with more junior folks or there's like technical things like you know we got to build up skills and stuff like that but that's that's normal. Um I think that software engineers in general gravitate towards that. I feel like maybe our brains are wired that way. Like we love technical challenges like hey you want to learn a new framework or anything else you have to learn start using Rust at work and you don't know Rust okay like sure that's going to be challenging but most I find like most developers are eager for these interesting technical challenges where they're going to scale up but that's generally like a for me at least like a loweffort thing because developers gravitate towards it what find what I find is like more >> uh call it more effort or like uh I don't even know if effort's the right word. Takes up more of my time like coaching with people on teams is uh is the soft skill side of things. >> Yeah. >> Like you have to work with a colleague and it's not effective. Okay, this is like everyone has this and if you don't yet, when you switch teams or you have a new person on your team, you will probably experience this at some point. And I find that these kinds of interactions or like how you how you need to go lead projects and get other people bought in like all of these types of things I spend a disproportionate amount of time and I'm not saying for the like because it's bad a disproportionate amount of time trying to coach people through this because I find that this does not get attention like it naturally I find that software engineers focus purely on the technical side of things and like I said I don't blame them cuz if I weren't at work, my brain would be like, I just want to go code and build stuff. >> But when I have to work in Teams, it there's so many of these other aspects that are not code that just really need a lot of attention. So that makes a lot of sense to me. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean I I think uh you know there's a lot of great um engineering leaders on Substack on LinkedIn um that are talking about these topics and you know kind of bringing um the discussion of of soft skills and giving feedback and um you know leading without the title and all all these other things that are non-technical if you will. they're they're bringing these discussions up and and you know talking about them in their newsletters or live streams and you know I'm just so so grateful for that you know to be you know one of many that are are doing that and kind of um putting that that spotlight on on these skills because I really do think you know uh you know the the the path to to a long career in tech and the path to leadership whether that's on the management path or the individual contributor path. Um, is, you know, really strong soft skills, people skills, leadership skills, if you will. Um, you know, even I mean, I've said this before, even like the most senior individual contributor, a principal engineer if you will, or an architect. um you you know yeah those people might um you know they might go away for a while and like you know um just kind of be heads down coding and and and be in their own little bubble but at some point they're going to need to come out and they're going to need to share their ideas. they're going to need to get buy in for um the problems they're trying to solve. And um and and if they want, you know, what if they want their work to be integrated with the rest of the team, they're going to need to figure out ways to um you know, to educate the rest of the team on what they're building and what they're doing. And um and like I said, getting that support and that buyin. And how do you do that? You have it's it's it goes way beyond code. You have to like have those communication skills. You have to um be willing to, you know, present in meetings and and have those healthy um sometimes contentious discussions about like, you know, technical tradeoffs and and and things like that. So, um >> can't just tell people what to do, like here's my idea, like go off and go do it and like expect it done in next by next week. >> Exactly. So yeah, you know, I I really like I'm I'm I'm happy to be part of that dialogue, you know, on the internet as far as um you know, talking about the human side of software engineering and um you know, there's there's just so many great great people out there right now, leaders and content creators who are um you know, highlighting all this all this um all these topics and I I just think it's great. So um because like you said, you know, like you said, there's no is you're not given a manual. There's no like book series that you can you know purchase and read about this stuff like um you know and then even the traditional path with like courses at a university. I mean nobody there's no courses for this stuff you know like so it's all it's all about >> absolutely not what was taught in school for me like zero to do with that. >> Yeah. And so, you know, obviously learning on the job and learning, you know, while you, you know, attempt to grow in these skills and be given more responsibilities, that's certainly a great a great teacher. Um, but I think also, you know, paying attention to those thought leaders on LinkedIn and subscribing to those new newsletters and tuning into those live streams and those podcast episodes where people talk about these things. That's another, you know, fantastic way to learn about these topics and to get exposure to to some of these ideas and um eventually, you know, be given kind of the tools and the resources you need to then go back to your day job and, you know, apply these things, right? >> Yeah. because I I think one of I'm making a a bit of an assumption here because like I said, I I don't have data on this stuff, so I'm trying to draw my own conclusions, but I find that when it comes to like building skills and things like that, when it comes to technical skills, we have like work we have to do or we can go build a project like we can we basically can be proactive to go exercise and work on these skills. when it comes to things like soft skills like for example if it's like you need to work on conflict resolution okay like if you don't actively have something like at work where you're working through that like how do you go practice that right so I think there's a lot of soft skills where um unless you're actively in a scenario and you're trying to improve on it like you may be it's almost like you might be pressing pause on your ability to to work on those skills but I think to your point by if that is the case where you're actively working through something that you you need to improve on. It's a soft skill. If you're reading about it, you're trying to watch, you're trying to absorb and just like get more knowledge around it. Then when you are finding yourself entering a situation where you're like, "Oh, now I have this project I have to lead or I've just started working collaborating with a colleague and like there's a bit of friction and I don't really understand why." you might start having more tools that you're like, "Okay, I remember remember someone talking about this where they said um people, you know, everyone's a little bit different in terms of how they work. Maybe I need to be more like sensitive to like, you know, they're not just being a jerk. Like I need to understand how they're working and how they're communicating and >> yeah, >> like just having more exposure to these concepts can really help. But um so it's I guess probably an interesting journey for you going into like obviously web development from from teaching into startups and now you're also doing content creation and I think like you said like it really finding that there is like this network of individuals online that are talking about this stuff. So for you like what's content creation looked like for you so far? like how getting into this space where you're sharing ideas like maybe what's the motivation behind that or like how like I would love to hear from you like all the interesting sort of uh you know things that you've encountered as you've started doing that more. >> Yeah, that's a that's a loaded question there. >> There's a lot of different ways I could take that and and answer that. But no, I mean I think like you know I mean creating content um you know like creating content, starting your own side business, building an app um things things like that that we do. I think that a lot of software engineers um do on the side, right? Um it it it it's rarely black and white, you know. I think there's there's it it there's that it's just a gray area as far as like reasons why you do that. um and and and factors that go into it. It's it's you you almost can't like >> really narrow it down to just one or even two things maybe, right? And I feel that that's this that's the truth when it comes to content creation for me, you know? I mean, I think that it's just such a multi multiaceted um endeavor that I that I take on, you know. I think part of it is um part a big part of it is just my my passion for helping other people and wanting to you know share my knowledge on certain topics. Um and I feel like that maybe is in large part due to just where I am in my career. You know nearly like 20 years in tech now. Um, you know, I I mean, I I probably could have focused more on content creation, you know, maybe five years into my career, but at at that point, maybe I didn't have as much knowledge or experience to share, and so it would have been a little bit more challenging. Um, so yeah, I think, you know, a big part of it for me is like, you know, is is the teacher inside of me, you know, wanting to like >> wanting to educate, wanting to, you know, like focus on lessons that I've learned in my career in hopes that, you know, either people, other engineers can learn from that or, you know, hopefully avoid maybe some mistakes um I've made in the past. Um >> but in the very least just have um an extra an an extra source of knowledge to kind of draw from um when they when they face those >> those particular issues or um obstacles maybe in their career, right? Um and then you know I think I mean that's probably why I got started you know with with content creation and really like putting more of um an emphasis on that in my in my free time and and spending more time on it. um you know really last year is when 2024 is really when I started kind of taking that seriously and like it was you know before it used to just be random posts on LinkedIn and then it was kind of like okay like no I actually want to do I actually want to post a couple times a week if not every day on LinkedIn and I want to >> I want to think about the topics that I'm talking about and the stories that I'm sharing and the lessons that I'm teaching right um >> more structure to right? Like make it make it not a like a an I don't know afterthought or something where it's like oh I happen to have an idea but like be more conscious about like no I want to actually help other people with this. >> Yeah. Exactly. And I think that you know I mean I I I fully support you know variety of content. I mean I I will post jokes and memes occasionally. I'll I'll talk about, you know, my kids or my family, >> um, you know, and and personal things like that. So, I I support that that variety of, um, different topics and just sharing different sides of yourself. But yeah, when it comes to kind of like your your subject um the subject that you know best or your day job or what you do for a living, you know, yeah, being able to like focus in on different things you want to talk about um you know and and and kind of narrow that down a little bit and and organize that I think is super helpful. I mean that like as as a software engineer as you know I mean there's you can talk about all the different technologies and frameworks you use. You could talk about um the soft skills and the people side of things. You could talk about career development. So there's just within software engineering alone, there's a lot of different topics and ways to kind of take my content. Um but yeah, I think over time and especially I learned this last year starting to create more consistent content on LinkedIn and then also starting my newsletter besides code. Um I think just yeah very like consciously making that decision like hey I I really enjoy more talking about the human side of software engineering and and those people skills the soft skills like we mentioned earlier, right? And so being able to um have that be a core kind of content bucket for me I think was was definitely a conscious decision. Um and you know going back to your original question I think now that I have you know, spend some time creating content and and you know, have become more consistent, developed that habit of posting, you know, daily. Um, >> because it is a habit. Yes, >> it is. It is. Um I think then it naturally for me and I think for a lot of people it turns into okay like what is like what else you know like it I mean it it it it it's helpful to just share knowledge and to teach other people and to um you know like just create content for the sake of creating it. But um when you but you can also connect that to other things right. So like um you know I started my own side business last year and so that's something I'm involved with like you know I I have my newsletter. I'm creating digital products. I'm building apps. Um I've explored coaching. So then, you know, when you start doing all these other things on the side, it's kind of like, okay, the smart play is to really think about having your content lead, you know, your audience and your network to those different endeavor endeavors that you have going on, right? Those side projects, if you will. >> Um, so I think lately for me, that has been another big uh component of content creation. And it's okay. How, you know, do I want do I want people that follow me on LinkedIn to subscribe to my newsletter? Do I want them to sign up for this weight list I have for a new app I'm building? Um, do I want them to um, you know, schedule me for a coaching call? Right? So, just being a little bit more mindful, I think, of of um you know, what I have going on that I'm doing in addition to content creation that I might want my audience and my network to, you know, to be aware of. >> Yeah. And I So, I can absolutely appreciate that. And I think that I think there's a a lot of people that when they like a lot of people will try content creation and a lot of people will I'm going to say like sort of fail at it. And that includes me cuz I started in 2013 and failed after like 4 months. I just gave up. But I think that you know people try it and then they go like we talked about the habit of trying to to be you know regular with it. Uh I think some people expect that like overnight like oh I created content so like I should be going viral any minute now and like it doesn't doesn't work like that. You see stuff like that happen because that's the stuff that gets a lot of attention. But the overwhelming majority of creators, you know, if you follow their history, it's like they've been doing it for years just consistently. >> Yeah. >> So, I think that's like one thing I wanted to call out. I think the other thing that you as you were talking through is like you start creating more, you're sharing, and I think the motivation in my opinion is a big part of it. Right. So, uh, you kind of hinted at like probably because of, you know, before wanting to be a teacher and like help other people and help them learn, there's a lot of lessons that you can provide. That as a motivator is very interesting because if you start going, okay, well, you said I want to offer coaching or I have a newsletter now. Like, you're providing more avenues for more information, more help, right? >> Yes. >> And I think that's super cool. I think maybe what some people I don't know like I feel like social media is like a two-edged sword because you'll see other people who go, "Hey, I happened to go viral or I happen to get a lot of attention. Neat. Okay, how do I how do I monetize that as fast as I can?" So, like, what's the quickest way that I can divert that attention somewhere else to like try and make money? And I think when people see that, they're like, "This feels slimy. This is gross." But the reality is there's so many other creators that are like hey look I have more value to add like let me try to find more opportunities to do that for you. So it becomes in my like from my perspective I find that it gets tricky because I would love to keep diverting people to other things like hey like you know I don't offer coaching right now but I do have courses and I don't think that my courses are like a slimy get-richqu scheme. It's like I put a lot of time and effort into those and I want to help people. >> So like I try to structure some content to direct people to that or like my newsletter, my channels, things like that. So I can absolutely understand that >> as you start building momentum with it, you're like there's more that I can do and offer, how do I get more people to see these other opportunities? >> Yeah. And I don't think it's I mean I totally agree with that. And I don't think it's being too salesy or slimy at all. I think it's actually being very smart and being very aware of like your um you know how you how you resonate, how your content resonates with other people, h you know what what people like to read and see from you, you know, and and just um just the impact that you're having maybe um not only on your audience and network, but you know, in your industry as a whole, right? Um because at the end of the day I mean we all I think everybody you know everybody wants something everybody is is selling something to a certain extent and so I mean there's and I I'm sure you'll agree with me here like there's content creators out there that um you know some of them just really want to be thought leaders. They want to grow their following and um you know in case they lose their day job, they get laid off, like they want to have um thousands of followers that they can tap into for introductions, for referrals, to new jobs, um you know, essentially opening up doors um to new opportunities, right? And so, um, that maybe that maybe there isn't a clear, >> um, you know, monetization, you know, piece to that, but it's still it's still something that that person wants and that that, you know, that's a a motivator and a driving force for them to to create content and to connect with other people. So I've said that like very openly before where for myself I don't know how to gauge it but I said one of my success metrics for me would be that if I were ever like if I'm not working at Microsoft or wherever the next place is if I'm if I'm not working I basically would find that I'm being successful in terms of um awareness online my presence my personal brand when I have people reaching out to me like we want you here versus me reaching out and once I have like that uh I'm not saying that I'm done, but for me that's that's a success metric where like I don't have to worry about like please please please I want to work for you. I want it the other way where people are saying that to me. >> Yeah. >> So, >> and I and I think that that's like to me that's the difference between you know a successful content creator and then somebody who just like maybe goes viral for something and they don't they don't really put too much thought behind it and don't want to explore it. you know, I mean, you know, whether regardless of what the reason is, maybe you want to maybe you want to start your own business and so your content creation is going to be that top of the funnel for your business someday. Um, maybe you just want to grow your network and and um, you know, you know, h keep your ear open to any new like job opportunities. So maybe it could be content creation could almost be like um you know helping you have job stability and security right with your career. Um so you know I mean the the the the reasons and kind of the um use cases are limitless right but I think the the difference is you know it's those people who take the time to say you know hey like I want a better job or I want a higher paying job or I want to start my own business or I want to start a newsletter and like you know have that kind of an audience right whatever your reason is I think when you take the time to um to just analyze that and think about it a little bit um your your your content is going to um be way better because of that and your strategy is going to be way better um because there's actually like some rhyme and reason behind what you're doing, right? It's like >> you're not just um throwing out random posts. You're not just recording video content. You're not just posting random podcasts. like you have you have goals in mind. You have um objectives that you're trying to reach, whether that's for your own, you know, career or day job or something on the side. Um and honestly, that's like the successful most successful content creators that I that I'm friends with that I know out there. um yourself included, you know. I mean, I think that um I think all of those people what they have in common is that they've spent some time thinking about, okay, >> um this is my strategy. This is what I'm after. Um and this is and and that becomes your why. Because >> yeah, >> as I'm sure you'll agree with me, um there's a lot of days where, you know, you and I don't want to do what we do, whether it's posting on social media or just showing up um for a coffee chat or for like a recording to do this and that. I mean, that like life gets in the way. Um having a full-time job gets in the way. Um and it's hard to juggle all those things, right? And so if you are going to build up that habit like we've talked about and like be be a be viewed as a as a consistent creator, you need to have that why that you can fall back on and you need to say, "Okay, you know, on the days that it's really hard to get up and do this, this is why I'm doing it and I still believe in this, you know, to to this day." >> Yeah. And like 100% agreed with that. I know that um like I have times with work and I've said this so I have a like a vlog YouTube channel called Code Commute and I talk about it very openly. I had a a project that was like 5 months long that you know was at the beginning of this year and I was completely burnt out and to the point where like if I had time after work I'm like I can't film for YouTube. Like I I can't do anything. I can't even like relax and play video games. There were some nights where I'm like, I just need to go to sleep so that I can start the next day. I know that if I start the next day, I'll just be fresh at least to start, >> but like I'm just there's nothing left. >> Yeah. >> And when we talk about, you know, content creation, like you're totally right that when you have a why, >> you're like it's it becomes motivating. And I I say this for software engineering in general too, not just for content creation. If you think about work that you have to do, go work on this story, like implement this feature. If you tell engineers, here's what and how to do it, they're basically just going okay, like sure. But when you say here's why we're doing it, and then you can go let them be creative to solve problems, engagement is way up. So I think why is like a super important question. The um when it comes to content though, >> the like a lot of us that are into content creation, we are told early on, you must be consistent. You must be and consistent is like it means regular and over time. Like you can't just be like regular for a week and then not do it or you can't just do it for 20 years but only post like once a year. Like you have to you need it's the the you know the product of both of those things together. >> Yes. >> And so like for me my side thing is creating tools that allow me to do that so that when I have a period of burnout and I'm like I can't write LinkedIn posts this week. I have there's no mental capacity left. As much as I want to, I know my why, I cannot. So, I have tools that let me say, I've created this content before. Like, I've written it. Go post it. Like, it's done. >> Yes. And I think uh I mean um I think both of us agree on this this point that or both of these points that like one, you can absolutely reuse content. um you know people are going to forget about it and um new new eyes are going to see that every time you you hit hit postublish >> LinkedIn only sharing it to like you know 100 impressions like okay thank you very much LinkedIn >> exactly um and the other point is you know just the fact of scheduling content and how um how much of a um a timesaver that is how um how it really can uh make you know life a a lot easier and just more manageable, especially when you're when you do have that day job and then you have side projects as well that you're working on and you want to be able to spend some time with your family or want to be able to go to the gym or do anything else, right? So, um, I think those are those are like some very important lessons to learn early on as a content creator is, you know, it, you know, finding ways to to reuse your content and to kind of um, you know, continue to to share that message because, you know, the truth is a lot of us, we need, you know, we need to hear a message multiple times before it really clicks and and we understand it. >> There's science for that. I don't have it at my fingertips, but there is science behind that. >> Yes. So, you know, like for anybody out there listening, um, you know, if you wrote this amazing post or newsletter or article, you know, months ago and, um, you really believe in that message and that content, you know, absolutely like find ways to, um, you know, to to kind of slice and dice it and and resurface it and and, you know, not only are you going to um, if you're growing your your your following and your, you know, like connections on different platforms. Obviously, new people are going to see that content because you have new followers, but for your old and existing followers, it's still going to be helpful for them to to see that message again, right? Um especially if it's if it's a core topic that you um you know, believe in and that you want to you know, like promote and talk about, right? So, um yeah, I think that um you know, like and and and really the other thing I wanted to say about content creation is, um you know, whether it's the the lesson of reusing content or the lesson of like how helpful it can be to schedule content, you know, you don't you don't learn those overnight. And it does take time to learn that. And I think that, you know, like with a lot of things in life, you just you just got to get started and you got to like um just just, you know, like put yourself out there and and see how it goes. I mean, that's, you know, I'm I'm also building like SAS apps on the side and exploring that and learning from that. And it's like >> you don't, you know, like I'm not going to learn just by thinking about it in my head and like planning it out. Like you have actually have to do it and put yourself out there. And so >> that's a cool idea. Hm. like I got all now I have all of the knowledge and like I didn't have to do doesn't work that >> you have to go do it. >> Yeah. And so you know I think whether it's content creation or or um you know starting up a coaching business or building an app on the side um you know just put yourself out there. Just take that first step and and um you know and and and take that take that small step and and have have that momentum build up over time, right? because you're you're going to learn a a lot um about, you know, h how to how to how to fit that into your life. Um how to how to do it with with purpose, with strategy, um how to learn from mistakes and um failures and and and apply that to, you know, future endeavors and and and get better and improve, right? So um yeah it's it's I mean you know we talk about the external impact of content creation and how you know your what you're saying your words your um you know your content can can help other people can inspire them and motivate them. But there's also that internal factor at play and that you know like being able to um just realize how resilient you are, realize how um strong you are and how you can overcome obstacles, how you can learn from um past mistakes and improve and get better. Um there's there's obviously a lot of like discipline involved when it comes to creating content, you know, and and forming that habit. And so um yeah there's as much as uh you might see the impact externally I think people like ourselves also um you know experience that like shift internally and we um become better you know in content creators and maybe even better humans because of it. Yeah. And I want to be conscious of time because I know you have a hard stop, but maybe one one final thought related to that is that like for for folks that are listening and watching, right? We're talking about software engineering. We're talking about content creation. If you're like, how does this how does this affect me? Like, well, one thought is you could be trying to learn in public, right? This is how when I started Dev Leader in 2013 and gave up. I started it because I was transitioning into an engineering manager role. I'd been there for a little bit and I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I should I should start documenting this for other people that probably have no idea what they're doing. >> Yeah. >> Um, so you can you can get started. The expectations like keep them low. It's not like don't try to learn in public so that you can be a viral sensation. Do it because it's going to help you get your thoughts together. Do it because there's other people that are absolutely going to learn from you. And like David was saying, you know, you can build up this habit. you can build up this sort of skill. You're doing internal reflection. You're organizing your thoughts and sharing like it is it's really powerful and you pro like you may not realize that until you kind of get started. But um David, I wanted to say thank you so much for joining me here. Um I'll get links and stuff from you after to put into the notes, but do you want to share with people like how they can reach out to you, where to find you, and the different things that you're offering? Yeah. So, um, always happy to connect with new people on LinkedIn. Um, and, um, like I said, I have a newsletter on Substack, um, besidescode.com. Um and yeah, just really happy about the direction that that is heading right now and being able to um not only write about the topics that uh you know inspire me and kind of motivate me to to be an engineering engineering leader now nowadays, but also um you know I'm I'm excited to to have guest posts and to have other writers on to kind of highlight their thoughts and and their journey as well. Um, so yeah, the LinkedIn and and Substack are really the best places to reach me right now. >> Awesome stuff. Okay, I will get those links from you after. Make sure they're included and if there's anything that you missed, then we'll add that, too. But David, thanks again. I really appreciate the time. Uh, awesome conversation. I love doing this. So, thank you. >> Yeah, thanks, Nick. Appreciate it.