Your Career Will Mean NOTHING Without This - Interview With William Ray

saying, "You could do this, man. You got this. Go." Like, you've been through so much worse in your life. Like, you can do this. Go. >> Hi, I'm Nick Coantino and I'm a principal software engineering manager at Microsoft. In this interview, I got to sit down with William Ray and hear his story about how he's breaking into tech and he's got an awesome story because he's got a background that is not typical and he's been through some hard things. I think it's really awesome that he has this great message to share with all of us. And you can hear about how he's trying to transform his life and do better things. And of course, the job market for tech is really difficult right now, but it's really cool to hear that Will is going out and creating work for himself. So, he's being very proactive, and I just really love a lot of the things that he's doing. If you like this kind of content, leave a comment below to let me know. Thanks. Sit back and enjoy. I'll see you next time. You do have a very interesting story about where like how you got to where you are currently. I don't know where you'd like to start with that, but I think hearing about that would be tremendous. I think there's a lot of value for people to hear about that because like like I mentioned you before we flipped the recording switch, it was like I think a lot of people expect if I want to be a software developer, I must go down this certain path. Things must look a certain way. But the reality is it doesn't look that way for a ton of people. So I think you have a great example of that to share. Yeah. So, it started with me being in healthcare. So, you know, my past is a lot of uh crime and and drugs were in my own personal past. And after I cleaned up my life probably back in 2017, um I got into healthc care and I really dug deep. Like I have no college degree. I have no certificates, but I moved up to directoral uh positions in substance abuse facilities like managing like man I a lot of people over 100 individual supervisors and everything like they would flow me fly me out of state like it was it was big but >> I did a lot really quick and that was from like my charisma, my willing to work, my quick learning, my being like relatable and empathy just just being myself I guess helped me climb that rank and uh I'll to be honest, it's it's very taxing on the soul uh working in that field. And then also there's a lot of red tape. So like me, I want to just help everybody. I don't want to think about all the the red tape or the politics involved. Like I just want to help people. I want to show love like was given to me when I turned my life around because that's how it happened. And I started looking in different ways to to like change my career. And I always like technology and I don't even remember how it happened. And I got like on the VA site and then I somewhere else but somehow I ended up typing my first hello world in Python and >> okay >> and my mind was blown. I was like what I just did that because I felt like I couldn't man. I was never good at math. I wasn't would consider myself like not smart but like I don't feel like I was intelligent enough for that stuff. And >> sure >> and I don't know it it I don't know man. was like this weird events like I I did a IT support uh certificate through Google that turned into me typing hello world in Python that turned into me making a a little game where you could uh put a robot through a maze and that was just like >> that was it I was sold on it >> and I'm doing it >> seriously man and like watching the things happen on the screen by me typing characters into the computer was just like I I Still, it gets me so excited. I'm like, this is just wild. And uh I did that for a while with self-study and and was still working. And then uh I quit my job and I was like, I'm going to do this. We're going to make it happen. And uh it didn't happen, right? AI started getting real big and a lot of things happened and I gave up for a while. So, we were talking about that earlier like I I quit. I got a really good job back in substance abuse and I just kind of like gave it up. I was like, there's no point. This is never going to happen. >> I just give up. And then recently um a company that I had signed up for last year came back and reached out to me randomly and kind of reignited that flame for me. And then I went to a boot camp which I just completed in April. >> Congratulations. >> And uh now Thank you. Thank you. That was I did a Java boot camp with Tech Elevator and and now I'm on the job hunt, man. you know, I'm I've been looking for a job, but I have a family to take care of, which led me into the contracting and kind of figure out ways to generate leads to build websites for people so I could get experience in that, but also like supplement my income during my job hunt and then here we are, you know. >> That's awesome. No, and I mean there's a there's a lot of power in that story, right? I think it's first of all, thank you for sharing. I mean, there's I think a lot of people are uncomfortable being able to talk about things in their past and stuff. So, being able to have something like that in your life where you've been able to to find a way to kind of turn it around for yourself, that's that's extremely powerful. So, thank you for sharing that. >> Um, >> I love to hear that, you know, part of that journey for you was aside from the software part, right? basically being able to to say I want to give back. Like you had in in part of your journey, it required, you know, the help of others to get you past that. And now you're at this point where you're like, I want to do that for the others. So the the red tape thing, um, I could totally understand. And like anything in medical, it's just going to be a complete nightmare for red tape. So, I could imagine that would feel frustrating where you're like, man, I just want to I just want to do what people did for me and and keep doing it like stop with the red tape. So, could imagine the frustration there for sure. But before we move on, this is just a reminder that I do have courses available on dome train if you want to level up in your C programming. If you head over to dome train, you can see that I have a course bundle that has my getting started and deep dive courses on C. Between the two of these, that's 11 hours of programming in the C language, taking you from absolutely no programming experience to being able to build basic applications. You'll learn everything about variables, loops, a bit of async programming and object-oriented programming as well. Make sure to check it out. >> Very, very much so. And and I do a lot of like my family really. We do a lot of like volunteer work outside of here and we help people get clean and kind of change their lives and it brings a lot of joy to me. But when you put money involved with it, it just makes it it just makes it really difficult. Which which led me into software development because my hope is that I can get involved in a project that is changing people's lives and is still helping. But it's not life or death so much. You know, like when you're dealing with people that are in substance abuse in and out of prison, crime, all these different things, it's life or death. Like, >> right, >> a lot of times some people just don't come back and that's the reality of it. And it's I don't know when you put money involved it just doesn't feel right. It gives me that that like icky feeling like it just don't seem right. >> Yeah. There's too much opportunity like anything that you associate money with. It's like people want money, right? Like it's a motivator for basically everyone. So it can become at odds with what you're trying to do fundamentally, which is help people, right? So when you start putting those two things together, it's like, you know, a weird a weird balance. I can totally understand that that icky feeling. I have a a question for you though and it's about and I don't know if you know the answer to this if you've thought about it but when you're going you kind of mentioned that you had something that felt like a pretty good stable position for being able to help um you know give back and you mentioned moving up pretty quickly. I understand if you're like, "Okay, I got the the flame reignited for coding." But what's the thing that like kind of got you to say, "Screw it. I'm doing this for real." Like what what really made you kind of take that leap instead of just being like, "This is comfy." Because I I think that's a huge challenge for a lot of people. So, it's a little bit of different things, you know, and if I'm being completely honest, some of it is money related because without me going to get a master's degree in social work or something like that. Like, I was making over six figures and all I have is a GED. I've been to prison multiple times. I was a drug addict for most of my life and I was running a multi-million dollar substance abuse facility with a GED. You know what I mean? And I I say all that because I felt like I'd capped out without getting more education. So there was a money piece in play, but also like like I said, like I felt icky trying to help people all the time. But then I something had happened and I was helping a client and I remember like I went out of my way and wasted well I don't want to say wasted. I use that word. I shouldn't have said that. But I used up a lot of company time that they felt like I wasted on an individual that probably shouldn't have had that they felt. And I remember sitting there and somebody kind of reprimmended me that that way. They didn't like get on to me, but the what they were saying in between the lines was like, "Don't do that." And I remember sitting there thinking like, I may have saved that guy's life. >> You know what I mean? Like he was ready to go. And you come to me to tell me that, you know, I shouldn't be wasting my office time with that. And it just it it it affected me like a lot. Like I I felt very miserable at work after that. And it was like that that pain motivates us to do change, right? When you feel enough when the pain is great enough, you'll do something different. And that was kind of one of those movements for me was like already I was like, how can I make more money? I got a late start in life. I need to invest quicker. I need to make more money and do these things. But also like I don't like how this feels anymore, right? it doesn't feel like it's helping people anymore. I feel like I'm lying in people's pockets and my heart wasn't in it anymore. And it was just it was so weird because it was like a a switch was flipped and I was like, I'm just going to go all in and I'm going to figure this out one way or another. >> Interesting. Yeah. So, that's a that's a really good point to call out, right? So, there's a obviously the interest that you wanted to get into software development. So you have that opportunity to be like okay this is calling me but at the same time you have something like where you're like my alignment with this is not really working and it's you mentioned already that you are doing volunteer work with your family still so it's not like you said hey screw this it's not important to me at all like you're finding ways where you can still volunteer and I is that accurate to say >> no yeah very much so because it it fills a part of my soul that nothing else does right there's just something you get from it that money doesn't fill, other things don't feel. It's just like a that's part of who I am. And I I'd like to say it's a part of who my kids are, a part of who the whole family is, is that that that is us as a family. Like people know when we show up, we're going to help. We're going to roll our sleeves up. We're going to do whatever we can. We'll stay late after the party to help clean up, you know, stuff like that. And it's really important. I instill it into my kids just because I feel like that's the only reason I'm here because my life I feel like I shouldn't be here, man. I I went through some things in my life that I'm surprised that I made it out of and like it means a lot for me to give that back to other people. >> Yeah, that's that is truly >> a humble brag. >> No. Well, it's I think it's um you know I think it's good, right? It's like not having gone through it, it's not really fair for me to say, but I imagine it kind of feels like this second chance to do more with your life and being able to instill these things with your children and have this kind of embedded in your family. I just I feel like that is such a cool thing to be able to say, "Hey, look, like we're going to do better and your your kids are kind of also part of that and uh I I think that's awesome." So that's that's really cool to hear. >> So boot camp, I want to hear about boot camp. Um this is a thing I know you mentioned like okay so the medical side of things you were saying okay kind of feeling capped out and I think this is a pretty typical thing that can happen in a lot of industries where you might be like based on um whether it's uh like formal education in terms of mast's PhD or some type of training certification you kind of in some industries or some areas kind of reach a point where you're like I kind of feel stuck but so and so has X they seem to be able to get further whether or not you agree with it um seems to be a thing that happens. Um and so in this case when software development I imagine a similar thing came up where you're like I don't know if I want to go try to go for uh university or college for four or five years or something. But I'm assuming the boot camp opportunity just seemed like a much better fit. Is that fair to say? And what kind of drove you in that direction? ve very much so. So, I had self-studied for a while and you know, like I said, I had quit. I felt like I wasn't getting anywhere and and I think everybody goes through that where you just feel like you're not learning, you're not networking enough, whatever it may be. But, uh, boot camps had a real they have a real bad name at the moment. So, I did a lot of research on that. But like you said, I I don't really want to go spend the next four hours or four hours four years learning in a for a college education because what's the next four years look like? You know, who who knows? Is it still going to be worth it when I'm done? I have a family to support. Like I I got a late start in life. I want to make this happen a little bit faster. I'm already, you know, I've built some websites at this point. I I've metworked with a few people. I had a YouTube channel and I had already done a lot of things. So, I thought maybe the boot camp would be like the little credentiing on my resume that maybe somebody like, "Okay, he's been doing this for a little bit. He's taking it serious. He dropped, you know, 25,000 on a boot camp, including fees for living and stuff, but maybe that would be the the the last push over the hill is is kind of what I was hoping for with that." So, I chose to go to a boot camp. It was full-time for four months and I I I'm torn at the moment, right? So, >> it was good. It It was good. I learned a lot. I met a lot of really cool people and I have I do I I like to do a two-prong approach when I apply and it opened up the doors to a lot of other people. And I think that was kind of what I really wanted anyways. But since I don't have a full-time job at the moment, maybe I'm still bitter and it's not their fault, it's my own fault. Right. >> Okay. Yeah. >> So, how did you um Okay. I I've definitely heard regarding boot camps like I've heard of some people especially recently talking about having success at them. And I think that's awesome because I don't I don't want software engineering and software development to be like a gatekept thing. I think that like one of the really awesome things and kind of like part of your story is like hey like you kind of stumbled upon programming and you're like holy crap this is cool and you're doing it and I think that for so many people they're like oh no like I'm just not smart enough I don't know math it's just I'm not that person and I think that there's already too much of that and we don't need any other things to gatekeep people from going further. I think there's value in college and university. I think there's value in formal education, but I don't think that it needs to be the only thing. So, I'm glad to see some things are changing, but I have seen a lot of boot camps. There's so many of them and I think I've talked about this before and I want to kind of hear your perspective on this because you had to go through finding a boot camp, but it feels like to me with so many boot camps that are competing with each other, you kind of have this effect of like how do we make ourselves look better than the other boot camps? So, we will do it better for you. We will do it faster for you. We will have a better guarantee. And I think that those three things just don't really work well together because it ends up being like in one week you'll be the the biggest expert ever in the world on some technology and we guarantee it and it's like it actually just doesn't work that way. So I'm curious how you navigated and found one where you were like I think like this is a good fit for me. So I don't know if you had like a I don't know like a research kind of process you had to do. >> For sure. For sure. So I I researched heavily. I mean, so for the whole year that I was self-studying, the reason I hadn't made the leap yet is because I couldn't afford it. Like things weren't, it just wasn't adding up for me to be able to do a full-time boot camp at the moment. And I felt like part-time wasn't going to be much better than what I was doing anyways. But I didn't listen to what the boot camps were saying. So I didn't look at none of their pages. I didn't do none of that. I got on LinkedIn and I found people that had been through boot camps and I reached out to them personally. I probably talked to I I want to say close to a hundred different people at different boot camps before I even went and and I tried to pick people in my area because I thought maybe locally. So like Tech Elevator in the area that I'm in, they are businesses respect them at the moment. A lot of people have gotten hired. Obviously it's the times are tough and I knew it was going to be difficult. I think I under underestimated how difficult. But I knew that it was a battle coming, but but it was researching through the people that went through it, right? And not just cherrypicking people that had good experiences, but talking to everybody. The people that two years out of boot camp still haven't got a job. You know what I mean? Like I had to talk to everybody to get all the perspectives for that. And just literally cold calling people just like I do now for a job. But I did it looking into the boot camps that I wanted to go to. >> Right. Okay. And then so you ended up finding one based on basically a lot of that feedback like almost like testimonials and finding something that you'd be aligned with. So I think I think that's awesome. I personally don't know. I haven't thought about it for myself. If I had to go through that, I feel like it would be extremely challenging just based on everything I see because there are so many. They all look like they're trying to sell you on the perfect dream opportunity. And at least for me having like gone through like I've been programming for 21 years so I fall into like the the traditional like I was a kid and computer nerd so like I just kind of kept doing that. Um >> so for me to go if I had to do this later and take a different path I I can't imagine how I would try to sift through a lot of the stuff I see. So awesome that you were able to do that. And you mentioned you're kind of like on the fence about how the experience went, but I'm curious like what parts is it mostly just that hey I don't have the job in hand now or were there other things like pros and cons that you'd want to share about the boot camp process? >> Yeah. Yes. So it was a really good process. I learned a lot. I love the team. I do feel so they have career services and this one is a lot more detailed than others. So I I don't want to down talk them at all because what they're providing >> like I literally have ser I could meet with people every day of the week for like the next four months. Like they're still doing classes and everything after I graduated. So they offer a lot that I can take advantage of. I guess the career services I expected something a little bit more because as someone that's a career switcher and had a pretty successful career in healthcare, I needed more than just general uh advice, right? Like general things like I need a little more detailed for my specific situation and and I and I get it to a degree and this is another thing is you know to be honest like do I feel this way because I don't have a job yet or is this how I really feel? So, even as I tell you this, like I think like do I even really feel that way or do I like love what they did and I think it's good. I'm just bitter at the moment, you know, and I think >> I'm trying to be honest like you know >> acknowledging the bias is like a huge thing when we reflect on stuff. That's a that's a superpower in and of itself, right? Um being able to step back and go like hold on like where is this coming from? But and I think that's a fair thing. So, it's good to hear like that sounds like a really good support system that they offer for you even once you're you're graduated and you felt like you were learning, but something I wanted to ask more about is like you you had experience developing already. So, going through the boot camp, what did when you're saying that you were learning like h what what was the difference in learning versus you just kind of doing it on your own? Was it just more like structure? Was it new things or a combination? Just kind of curious about like how they helped level up for you. >> Right. Great, great question. So, the structure was a huge one for me. Um, another big one was honestly I was able to take out extra parts of loans and then I invest in the stock market. So, I took the extra money, invested it, and now I've stretched the money even further. So, that was another big selling point. But also, so even as I do like contract web development um with local businesses, it's mostly all front end. And when I was self uh self-eing, it was really hard for me to learn any backend, but it was really easy for me to pick up the front end because I could watch everything change as I do it. So the back end was a big thing. So we learned Java in there and just like SQL and MDC's and all these different things. It was nice to be able to touch that stuff because I hadn't really touched it before. like I felt very good with HTML, CSS, JavaScript. I've done a little bit of React, so I I have an idea of like what frameworks do and stuff like that, but working with Java and like controllers and learning about OOP, that stuff was major in the boot camp because I wasn't getting that on my own. Like it wasn't clicking. And maybe it took me self-studying for that long and then going there. And maybe that's why I felt like it clicked then because I already like had at least seen it before and touched it before. But that was like the last piece that was like, "Oh, that makes sense. Okay, that's polymorphism. I get it. Okay." Right. >> Yeah. No, that's that's super cool. I can imagine like in your own Okay. A couple things that are coming to mind for me. Being self-taught and if you're looking for, uh, you know, jobs and stuff, uh, like contract work. probably a side effect of those two things together is that um when you're picking up contract work, you're probably trying to take on things that you know you can deliver for, right? So, if someone was like, I need something built, you're not going to go, hm, I don't know how to do that, but I can do like 25% of it. Like, I'll take it. Because you'd probably feel like, oh crap, I can't deliver on this. So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I feel like it might put you in a position where you don't kind of stretch too far out of your comfort zone to learn maybe more backend stuff, different tech stacks, because you're just saying, I can use these things I know, get better at them, and deliver the software. Is that fair or different stance on that? >> Okay, so for the most part, that is fair and that is the truth. But I deal with a lot of mom and pop stores that wouldn't necessarily have an online presence at all. So when they start like I'm getting ready to get a blog website set up for somebody and like >> I've done it before a little bit but like I am willing to do a little bit more than what's in my comfort zone. But you are right, like if it was a different kind of contract maybe, but since I'm going out and generating these leads myself, like I'm I'm cold calling people, I'm sending messages, it's a little bit different and I'm willing to, you know, go go past my comfort zone a little bit, right? Unless it's like a really big project. So, I did get offered a a pretty substantial project coming up. I don't know if I'm going to take it just because it is a lot out of my realm and it's it's it's a really I think I could do it, but they're relying on it so much. I don't want to put a bad name on myself out here, too. Like, >> you know, we let Will try, but he didn't make it happen or it was janky or he did spaghetti code through the whole thing. Like, you know, something like that, >> right? Well, that's No, I I I think that's a very respectable thing, right? to be able to have the, you know, you want to stretch outside of your comfort zone, but at the same time, if you're like, I don't know. I feel like my perspective is if someone's paying you money, if you're like, I don't feel good about this, maybe maybe it's not a great opportunity. Um, maybe it's something for the future, right? Where you can say, hey, like if there's still more opportunities, you you have that connection made if they need more things built, you have more experience, you can kind of lean back into that. But I think, you know, if there's other opportunities that you can take along the way, that's that's excellent. Um, which leads me to another interesting question because you have a a unique experience here. I think a lot of people are not only trying, you know, they might be going through boot camps or might be trying to figure out how to get started, but you've done a bunch of this stuff and you've gotten contract work. Like I have never even gotten contract work in my entire life. And something that you said that was making me go like, you know, my skins crawling is cold calling. But this is really interesting because it's a skill that stereotypically software engineers and developers, you won't see me on a phone. If some if my phone rings right now, I would be going, why is that happening? So never mind me having to reach out to someone on a phone or send an email to someone and being like, you know, I'm basically cold calling, right? How like is this just like part of your personality where you're comfortable with that or did you have to overcome that type of thing? >> Really good question >> cuz I need to know for you. >> So, >> right. So, I have to say like I'm kind of like that too, right? If my phone rings, I don't always want to talk on the phone. I'm not real big on that. But I also believe like desperation breeds innovation, right? and I was feeling desperate. I'm really good talking to people when I get comfortable. Like it's kind of been my career is is like literally building rapport with people and I do public speaking and the volunteer bases. So like I'm comfortable with it to a degree, but this is a little bit different when you're cold calling and you you need to be prepared for lots of nos, lots of not responding, uh lots of people saying yes, this is awesome and then string you along for weeks and then never do anything. But uh I will say the first couple times I did it, I paced in my room for a little bit and I was like, "Do this. You can do and I had to hype myself up to do it to send it." And then I did it and I was like, "Nothing happened." Okay, I'm still okay, right? So I did it again. But I I do specifically remember doing those first couple ones. My palms were sweating. My heart was racing. I was scared, right? But you I just had to push through that fear because I was like I'm not getting a job right now. I have kids that I have to take care of. You know, I I have to do something. I can't sit here and wait for a company to give me a shot and I don't want to go back to healthcare. So, if I can stretch this a little bit longer during my job search, I'm going to do it. And that that kind of breedth innovation of like just do it. You know, desperation was like make it happen. And and here we are. It's nothing huge. It's not like paying all my bills, but like I'm going a little bit I'm it's stringing me along a little bit longer. You know what I mean? I have a little bit more time on my plate now. So, and I'm >> Yeah. >> I'm not building a whole lot of technical experience like because like you said, like I'm not doing a lot of stuff out of my comfort zone because I don't I want to give them a good product, but I'm learning about how to make a client's vision be reality. And I feel like that's a key for me is because I'm I'm really learning how to like pick through their mind of what they really want and put it on there. So when you're done, it it feels so good when you do a website and they sit down like, "Oh my god, I really like this." And like that is a really good feeling. You're like, "Yeah, okay. I did it. I did it." >> That's awesome. So couple things you said there that I absolutely love. So I definitely appreciate the open and honesty uh openness and honesty about pacing before getting on the phone, right? Like I when people talk to me >> person I was yelling at myself saying you could do this man you got this go like you've been through so much worse in your life like you can do this go >> yeah it's just a phone call right I I joke around um and I mean this is true though for for me public speaking like I do obviously do a bunch of YouTube and stuff now but that's helped me a lot before doing the YouTube videos um and I had to change the way it's probably over the last 16 months or so had to start changing the way I would refer to how I feel about speaking in public because I would say I am bad at it. I don't I don't you know I don't like speaking in public. I'm bad at it. But it's like it's not a fair statement. I'm not I don't like speaking in public. I'm bad at it. Is wrong to say because I'm only not great at speaking in public because I never do it if I keep telling myself. >> But you said it right there. Let me interrupt for one second. You said it right there. And our words hold power and what we tell ourselves every day is what we will become or believe or whatever. And like like you said right there, I don't mean to interrupt. I just like that is so important to me. I believe what you say about yourself is what you'll become. Like you literally have the power to say that. Like I was working with somebody recently just kind of like coaching and encouragement a little bit and kept saying I'm not a software developer. And I was like, "Quit saying that and say that you are because if you say it enough, you're going to believe it and then other people are going to believe it." And I'll leave it at that. I didn't cut you off. That is so important to me. >> I think that's huge. And um it probably it probably took hearing it from uh like that kind of mindset from my wife actually because I had I had a problem with saying things or acknowledging things like you know words are power because what I would I would take it like literally. So it would be like if you say something it will happen. I'm like sorry it's not magic. Things don't work that way. But what I started to realize is like that's not what people are saying. They're not saying literally you like summon and manifest things automatically by saying it because that's obviously not true. But what they're saying is that when you repeat the things when you shift your mindset that is where the change happens. And it took me, like I said, with the public speaking thing, I had to stop telling myself you're bad at it. So, I won't go around bragging and being like, "Oh, I'm so good at it." But at least I say like, "Hey, look, to speak in public, yeah, I get uncomfortable with it." But I've had enough people say like, "Hey, you did a great job. I put out enough YouTube videos now where I'm like, I can turn on a camera and talk to it. I don't I don't feel that I'm bad at it anymore. So, I don't have to say I'm a pro, but you know, I don't feel I'm bad at it. Do I get a little uncomfortable and a little nervous? Sure. But it was a mindset shift. So, the the joke or kind of a joke that I wanted to say is when you we're talking about the pacing and the hyping yourself up. What I used to tell people was that my my fear of talking in public is literally it feels and this is the same thing for uh cold calling. Exact same thing for cold calling. To me, it feels like I have to go ask the prettiest girl in high school to prom and you're holding your phone and you're like or you have to go walk up to her and you're like, I can't. How could I ever do this? I'm there's no I can't do it. I can't. Right? You keep telling yourself no. And I love that you said I did it and not like I'm still here, right? I I could not get over that kind of thing growing up and I wish I could go back. I mean, not to change the the girl dating thing, but just that mindset of being like literally stop sabotaging yourself because it's not helping. It's it's just ridiculous how big of an impact that has, >> right? But I think those things are important because I I don't think we get there without having those experiences when we're younger. So, and and this leads back to like, you know, I I went to prison. I was addicted to drug. All these different things. And like people say like, "Oh, I'm so sorry." sorry. And I'm like, "No, I'm not because I had to go through these things to make me the man I am today." And I feel like I've learned so much and I got over so many things from going through the negative things. So, just like you talking about as a child going through these things, I think they're so important. It's part of the process. Like, you can't just arrive to the destination. You have to drive there first. And that's part of driving there. And I like that a lot how you just said that because that's just part of the process. and it's uncomfortable and it's not fun, but you know it it can pay off in the end when you get through it and you're like, "Hey, I have a better understanding of this and it's probably going to stick this time because I went through all this stuff before." >> Yeah. And exactly along that uh that train of thought is especially for for more junior software developers or people trying to get into the industry, something I hear a lot is like and I I understand this because I think it's only human, people are looking for shortcuts. they will say, "Hey, you're doing it. Like, tell me what you did so I can just do it." And or like, you know, "What's the best book to read? What's the best language to learn? Like, where's the best courses?" And it's like, there just isn't. And the I have to keep repeating this to people, like the only shortcut is accepting that there isn't one, and the sooner that you can do that and just start putting in the time to get better, you will. You will put in the time and you will get better. And that's just kind of how it is. Um, so that's my philosophy. >> Yeah. >> Um, but you had another experience that you brought up that I wanted to call out as being so important for software engineers and I would say a majority of software engineers never get this experience in their entire career. And that is you talked about being able to, you know, speak with a customer and deliver to a customer what they're looking for. So getting in their head trying to figure out what they want. I would say that most software engineers never get to experience this ever. So I think that's really cool that you've had this this opportunity, but have you have you kind of acknowledged that for yourself where you're like this is actually a side to software engineering or is it kind of just like it's just happening because it has to has to take place? >> Yeah, I I don't think I have, man. sometimes, you know, if I'm being honest, I'm really hard on myself sometimes and I'm like, you know, and that's another thing like when you're a junior like or you're trying to break in, like I go through days where I don't feel motivated and I feel like I'm wasting my time and like I don't like as we're having this conversation and you're saying these things and it's clicking on my head, but I'm like, I never thought about that, right? And then I talked to somebody the other day and they were like, have you thought about being a PM or something? like you have a lot of leadership and like you understand the technical and I'm like I never really thought about and they were like you you could probably do that right now and I'm like well you know we'll we'll see we'll see but as you're going through it it's hard to see the picture when you're in the picture right and and it takes these kind of conversations and that's why this is another reason why networking is so important because people hold a mirror to yourself right because we can't always see what we're doing what we're accomplishing and it takes those people to hold that mirror up like look at you, man. Like you are doing these things. You are learning things that are really valuable that we just don't see. >> Yep. It's it's huge, right? It's uh I actually did uh I don't know if it was last week or the week before, I was doing a live stream on I think it was last month. I did a live stream basically on this idea of you know, we're not kind to ourselves. And even from you sharing your experiences, being able to volunteer and help, like obviously there's a tremendous amount of kindness built into you, right? It's part of who you are. Like you said, you're instilling it in your children. And it's so hard for us to be kind to ourselves. And you know, to be able to kind of sit there and go, I'm not going to not going to curse on YouTube, but like to be able to say, "Holy crap, like I am doing it right. it might not be as f you're not snapping your fingers and you know you're making a million dollars a year writing code without even you know looking at the screen kind of thing but like but you're doing it you're taking the steps to to get to where you want to be and I think it's important that we do have these opportunities to reflect and go yeah like if I if I were a year back seeing where I am now I'd probably be like yeah man that's pretty sweet right but we don't do it enough No, no. And and it is important. And it's so crazy because I push those kind of things onto people like be nice to yourself. You got to love yourself. Like you you you have to make yourself important like to yourself. Like you got to love on yourself and do these things and then I'll turn around and not do these things. Right. Yep. >> Right. But but I have awareness so I can reel myself back in usually. But you know, this last week was really difficult for me. I was like, man, nothing's nothing's happening. What what am I doing? and I just wasted all this money. We're eating up our savings. Like the kids are look, they'll be starving next week. What am I going to do? You know what I mean? And then the next day I'll wake up and I'll be like, you know what? Just keep doing what you're doing. It doesn't matter. Because that's what discipline is, is that our feelings can't always dictate our behaviors. Like we have to just do the things. And that's what's so important when you're trying to break in even moving up through the corporate ladder like all these different things. you just that discipline of like it doesn't matter how I feel today. I'm getting up. I'm applying. I'm cold calling. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm going to shoot this video. I'm going to do all these different things that I have to do in order to move forward whether I feel like it or not, >> right? Yeah. Not every day are we going to have that mo like we're not going to wake up every day feeling super motivated. And in fact, spoiler alert, we probably won't wake up feeling motivated most days. So, um, kind of have to accept and I love that you were kind of, you know, calling out some different examples there, like just got to do these things, right? And the more that you can kind of persevere through that, I think the better because you just end up building up this resiliency that carries over into a lot of other things. So, um, I think that's super important. the um the idea though about sort of that customer experience like a maybe experience is wrong the experience working with customers directly that's a better way to put it um I would say there's actually a big downfall to people that have gone through formal education and have never had experience to work with customers I was I feel lucky that when I went through university I had internships and at least uh at least a few of them allowed me to work pretty close with customers. Like one, we were it I was working for a contractor in the second internship I had there. We were at the contractor's like uh not a lab, I don't know what you would call it, like a facility, I guess, and we were writing code for their hardware there. And so we were like at the customer's location writing code. And so I feel lucky that I went through school at least and got to have these interactions with customers. not like I was leading the conversations, but I got to see them happening. And I think something that I've observed happen, again, it's a generalization. I don't really like doing generalizations because there's always exceptions, but what I've noticed is a lot of people that take a very strong stance on the academic side is they go into industry and then it's like, okay, we have to go deliver these features. And they need to a lot of the time wait until they feel like something's perfect. But what they don't realize is that basically 100% of the time you are never going to have anything that's perfect. You're going to be working in legacy code bases. All of those design patterns and things that people said either use them or don't in these situations. Guess what? You're seeing all of the exact opposite in the code bases you're working in. um you have time constraints unlike just trying to look at some theoretical stuff and I think that when people aren't grounded in the idea like we need to get value shipped to customers because that's the only reason that we're in business they end up missing the big picture and it's just code like what is perfect code and they lose all of that time so I did want to say again like I think that you having that exposure especially at this part in your career is is enormous. >> Thank you. Yeah. And it took somebody saying that to me, what you had just said, it got me thinking about somebody I was talking to recently and they were like, that's all that matters. If somebody's willing to pay you for what you're doing for them, like the customer, even in in any big tech or anything, like it all comes down to the user, right? What do they want? What do they appreciate? And that's that's the most important thing to think about when when you're doing that, I guess, from a business standpoint, should I say. >> Yeah. It's um I I wanted to give you an example because uh maybe in your current development, especially if it's mostly, you know, if you're doing stuff on your own right now, um something that happens is that people will talk about tech debt. I always love ranting about tech debt on on these chats when they when it comes up. Um but a lot of the time people will they take this perspective again engineering mindset I totally get it. Um hey we have this code it's crappy we need to spend the time refactoring it. Um this code has the it's like spaghetti code it's bad. And what ends up happening is that as programmers we want to talk to other people that are in different stakeholder positions. Maybe it is a PM but someone who acts as essentially a product owner and works on prioritization and the programmer will say again I'm generalizing here hey we have tech debt in this area we need to spend time on this and the the product owner will say well like why and the programmer can't articulate why oh it's bad oh it's ugly code oh it's not tested and the product owner is going so like we have these features to deliver and then you have this weird dichotomy where the product owners are like, why are the programmers always so concerned about their precious code? And the programmers are like, why don't the product owners ever listen to us? And the missing link is that you're not talking to the stakeholders or basically your audience in a way that they're going to care about. So if truly customers care about receiving the value, right? They want the value that you're giving them. You're solving their problems. They don't care what your code looks like. They don't care what programming language, tech stack, how many tests you have. They don't care about any of it. And people hate hearing that, >> but it's true. What they do care about is that they're getting the value and that they get it at a rate that they're happy with. >> So, if you are a programmer going, "Oh, why can't we get our tech debt address? Like, we have to go do that." start talking to your product owner about how addressing the tech debt is going to allow you to ship value faster. Like it's just a communication gap. And I think you're going to be so well positioned to have that other perspective to go hm like if we need to go work on tech that how is that going to translate, >> right? And explain it to them in a way that they can understand. They don't want to hear all the technical jargon. They don't care about the SEO I'm putting on there. They don't just tell. So what I just break it down like, "Hey, I'm going to help you show up in Google search more." You know what I mean? Like that's all they want to hear. They don't care about all the extra stuff. Just something simple and let them know why you're doing it, how it brings value to them, and here's your product, you know? >> Yeah, that's exactly it. Right. And that brings me to another point, and I wanted to kind of mention this about your your other experiences. And so I think for a lot of people that I've talked to at least who have done a career switch and maybe it's a little bit later in life compared to other people they're seeing they're going, "Oh, I'm I'm going to be behind, right? I I didn't, you know, I wasn't birthed like with a keyboard in my hand programming, so I'm going to be so far behind the average programmer, right? It's obviously a little exaggeration, but um they just feel like they're far behind because they they didn't have, you know, this setup that they're seeing what they imagine the stereotypical software engineer has. But um there are so many other experiences outside of software engineering directly that you can bring in and sort of use as a superpower as someone who develops software. Um, and you mentioned, you know, leadership traits. You mentioned, uh, you know, this innate kindness to try and help other people. Like that's a huge value ad on a team. Um, communication. So, uh, have you have you kind of thought through that? And have you noticed for yourself some of these skills that might be helping you already? >> Yeah, I want to say, yeah, but like we were talking about the value. I haven't got the value that I'm looking for and I'm I'm on a mission right now that I haven't accomplished. >> So, I don't reflect on it a whole lot because I'm still in the process. But I I assume once I achieve my goal and I get a full-time job and I'm not stressing over bills or whatever that I'll sit back and I usually do a reflection of what's going on and and I'll see and I know the value I bring because I I've done a lot with a lot of people and like I know what I can bring to a team and a lot of it is soft skills but I know that they're they're they're strong soft skills right team building like making the workplace funner to be in or like these little things are so important Because anybody listening, you as well, like you work somewhere that it's not fun to work with them or you don't get along with them. It makes the whole job miserable. The team doesn't produce as much product or the goals or the or achieving the the mission that we're after because everybody's miserable. Everybody's in a bad mood. They're just not happy. And it just brings everybody down. And I think it's so important to to have those skills to to build everybody up because I know when I'm in a good mood and I like my team and I'm working with them, I'm working harder, too. And I'm probably working faster and I'm probably doing better work than what I normally do just because the energy is better. The energy, everything about it is better. You know, >> it's it's a real thing. And like the exact opposite holds true. So a lot of the time you'll hear people talking about um as software developers you the 10x engineer and stuff like I don't know where the 10x comes from >> the graph that graph >> there you go right through to the moon somewhere um but basically you have this idea of being able to multiply other people and I think that that's a huge benefit that's what you want in teams but unfortunately the exact opposite holds true as well and if you have like one bad apple um the entire team can grind to a halt in terms of productivity. So, as a as an engineering manager, that's one of those things where yeah, I want to be encouraging everyone to try and be a multiplier with the rest of the team. Like, help out when you can. The more that we're working together, the better we can do as a team. But it only takes one person, even with a bunch of multipliers, to basically wreck the whole thing and make people go, "Why am I here? I hate being here." and then nothing gets done and no one's happy. So yeah, it's a I just wanted to mention like it's a it's a real thing. Makes a huge difference on >> it's real in all industry. It don't matter what industry you're in and that that holds true everywhere, right? And then you think like what if you don't have a multiplier on the team and all you have is a bunch of, you know, just I show up to work and then you got a couple bad apples. Then what happens? Next thing you know, you got a full turnover on the whole team, you know. Yep. It's absolutely >> as the one that's directed and right as because I've supervised a lot of teams. I was in the leadership roles and substance abuse and behavioral health and all these things for a long time. So like I've seen the effects firsthand of like people that are like you see them whispering at the water cooler and then you see scowls and then they didn't say hi in the morning and it just gets worse and worse. And my goal has always been to like as soon like I feed off energy like I can feel people's energy. I I'm I'm real good. I'm in tune with that kind of stuff. And like immediately I'm like, let's sit down and have a talk right now and let's address this because if it's not addressed immediately, it will become a lot worse. >> Y >> and you don't have to be mean because usually it's just them going through something bad. Like a lot of times like you find out that I I think of a a worker I had before that she was getting ready to lose her house and like her kid was sick and she was being real snippy and not nice at work, but I knew there was something deeper and it took that sitting down and talking to them and finding out what's really going on to address those issues. Like, okay, so there's something deeper going on. It's not the work at all, but you're taking it out on the work and the team, but it has nothing to do with that. So, let's address that. let's figure out how we can find a a solution to your issue. >> Yeah. It's this idea of like assuming best intentions with people, right? So, it's like people aren't I I don't like to believe that everyone's just malicious, right? Like so if something is if you're observing something that doesn't feel great, right? Someone's behavior, maybe it's changed, maybe it just whatever you're observing it and you're like, "This doesn't feel great." It's probably not, oh, this person is a terrible person. there's probably something else going on. So, um that's, you know, we see this all the time even uh not in leadership positions. You might notice that even just people's communication styles and stuff on code reviews, things like that, people emails, messages, like written communication, uh, one of the worst things in software engineering, even though it's like the most common thing we do, but you'll find that people communicate a certain way and you're like, m like, I don't know if I like I don't know if that's a good vibe that I'm getting from this person. And really like you if you just assume best intentions, you can go talk with them and be like, "Oh, like you're not totally a bully. You're actually a nice person. You're not mad when you're reviewing my code. It's just how you wrote the message." Like, but if we don't address these things, it's so easy for them to just spill over and erode an entire team in terms of like how effective, how engaged, just everything falls apart. So soft skills are critical. >> Seriously. And that and that's why I feel like it's so important for me to be open about things that I'm going through, how I feel. Like even my story, like people are very against me. They're like, "Hey, you haven't gotten a job in tech yet. I wouldn't be sharing that." And I'm like, "That's my story, right?" And I've been through that thing. And that inspires other people because when we're open with people, it allows them to be open because they're like, "Oh, you're showing me your your underbelly where you're vulnerable. Now I can do the same with you." And you build that rapport and that bond and it like you just don't know. then that kindness spreads to the next person and you you you change like that and I feel like that's so important but even you know to to translate that in software development and and team building like it's important to have that like we're all human and I think sometimes some of us forget that or or we're scared to talk about it because we think that we have to be a certain way all the time and it's just not the truth you know we don't we don't grow from that we don't learn from that we just stay kind of content is at least that's my experience >> yep 100% % we see it all the time even with engineers that become more and more senior they eventually not all of them obviously but sometimes people forget like you know I used to not be the highest level engineer I didn't used to know all of this stuff and they kind of get set in their ways you can kind of stagnate it's a it's a it's a shame for sure but the more that I think the phrase is like a growth mindset right keeping a growth mindset being open um being able to show vulnerability just goes a long way when I I've joined a team at Microsoft earlier this year. I switched teams and I said when I joined the team like I don't know like anything about this team. I don't know any of the technology we have. I have new hires and I need to be transparent with them. Like look, I don't know this stuff yet, but I'm going to learn it. You're going to learn it. We're going to learn it together because I don't want to masquerade as like oh like I know that and then then they can't trust me cuz they're like why is this guy lying to us? Like it just looks ridiculous. So, I think it's it's critical. >> Not only that, but like the people coming be like after you, like if you if you display that and then I'm sitting here trying to learn. I'm like, well, why am I not figuring this out like that? Why do I not understand? You know what I mean? And then it's it's discouraging. I I went through that personally where I seen people and I'm like, I'm not picking it up that quick. I'm I don't understand. You know what I mean? And it was like >> you start finding people that are honest like you're talking about. Right. Right. Right. Right. >> Yeah. No, that's that's huge, right? I think yeah, the vulnerability thing. It it's a it's a big part and I think a lot of us or maybe not a lot of us, but there's definitely some people who don't lean into it and uh yeah, I think the the right way to go is, you know, open honesty and goes a long way, especially in team building. So, that's uh definitely a good trait and good thing to keep in mind. Um but will I wanted to say thank you so much. I know it's Father's Day, so happy Father's Day. Obviously, this will be going out not on Father's Day, but thank you for making some time with me on Father's Day to have this chat. Um, you do have a YouTube channel. You are active on LinkedIn. I will get links and stuff from you after, but do you want to tell viewers where they can find you? >> Yeah. So, at the TechDad87 is my YouTube channel. I just kind of share my experiences and try to motivate others and just kind of build a community of people that went through a lot of what I went through early on. And I feel, you know, like this is my way to give back to the tech community. I've done it in healthcare and it's it just means a lot to me to do the same in the tech community to to spread this. Like we're talking about kindness and and being open and like the the things like pacing and I'm scared to do this. Like I want to tell people like, you know, I'm a big guy. I've been to prison. All these things, but like I get scared. Like I go through these things. Like you know, it's very normal for people to go through this stuff. Like we don't have to put on a facade today. Like we can share who we really are. Yeah, I love that. That's awesome. And then LinkedIn, what's your LinkedIn? You're you're active there, of course. So, >> I I am just William Ray. You'll see me with my blue collar shirt and a big smile. >> Awesome. And like I said, I'll get the link and stuff. So, I have that in the description in the comments and people can check you out. So, Will, thanks again. Uh, awesome story. I love what you're doing in terms of being able to give back. I love the the messaging and uh yeah the the job search will not take much longer. I'm I'm sure of it and it's great that you are being very proactive. You are basically creating work for yourself which is which is amazing. Um I I have never been able to do that for myself. So kudos to you. It's a really powerful thing. >> Thank you. Thank you.