Prioritize This CRITICAL Skill as a Developer - Interview With Callie Buruchara

God's gift to technology. Like I'm not that's not me. That's not me at all. >> Like your your technical skills you learned, you built them up over time, but it's not like you were you were born and you were like, I am JavaScript. Like, >> yeah. >> Hey, I'm Nick Coantino and I'm a principal software engineering manager at Microsoft. Welcome to the first of many software engineering interviews that we're going to be doing here on Dev Leader. Now, I had asked you viewers if you were interested in seeing some other types of content that would be layered on to the tutorials and the software engineering discussions that I have already on my channel on the regular cadence. One type of content that you voted for was software engineering interviews. So, this is going to be the first one. I had an awesome first guest. Her name is Calli Buruchara. I hope I got that right. But Callie and I had an awesome conversation about one of the most important software engineering skills. This is going to be communication. And so many people gravitate towards all of these super technical skills when it comes to software engineering, like what language you need to pick and be an expert at, all the different tech stacks. But truly, one of the most important skills that you can work on as a software engineer, especially as you become more and more senior, is communication. The flow of this one will feel a little bit more like a podcast where Cali and I are going back and forth in conversation, but the format of these will evolve over time as I have different guests on. Remember to check the pin comment and the description for more information. and enjoy this conversation with Cali. Okay. And so you're at New Relic, but what was like how did you what was the the journey to New Relic? >> Yeah. So I'm I'm a career transitioner. So New Relic is actually my first software engineering full-time job. >> Awesome. >> I before that I was a high school English teacher, which is, you know, a nonsequiter a little bit. Um but um yeah, so I I was a teacher and before that I ran international service projects. So, you know, I just I just choose very non-connected careers over and over again, basically is the point. Um, but yeah, I I decided I wanted to leave teaching and I went to a school called Launch School, which is definitely not a CS degree and it's not really a boot camp either. Um, it's like this weird h what would I call it? It's like a trade school for software engineering except the exams are way harder than my master's degree. So, you know, there's that. Um, but yeah, so I did that for about two years and just paired me super well and yeah, landed a job at New Relic and now I'm a senior. So, that's wild. >> That's super cool. Yeah. And I love um I love the career journeys that aren't like super traditional. I always think it's fascinating that people come into the industry with like very different backgrounds of skills, right? And I think some of the things that we wanted to talk about today are certainly about that. It's not like you said, okay, for for 30 years I'm going to grind like every language that's out there, every framework, and now I'm ready for software engineering. It was >> Yeah. >> a little bit different than that. >> Yeah, absolutely. I feel like I also mentor a lot of people entering um like transitioning into software engineering or sometimes it's their first job, but a lot of them they're transitioning into it. And I've really found that a lot of people struggle with the confidence to know that they'll do it because you're like, well, like like you said, I don't know 30 languages or I don't know the ins and outs of React like perfectly. And I'm like, well, literally no one does. Even the person who works on React every day, they don't know how to do it. They don't know everything either. They learn something new. Like, oh, there's another weird thing about JavaScript React. Very weird. I'm like, yeah, there's always weird stuff. keep that one in the in the bank for later. Yeah. Like I've been I've been using C for over 15 years and I asked someone at work in a different org to help me out with something that was on the side and they sent me some code and I was honestly I think they work in like the net area like for the language part and I was reading their code and I'm like >> I have like almost no idea what any of this stuff it felt like a different language and it was someone that was just like >> in the in the weeds of it. I'm like, man, I've been doing this for like over half my life. Like, whoa, I don't even know what this is. So, Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. It's not People don't have to know that level of detail. >> Absolutely. >> But the confidence part is something I observe as well, right? Like it's uh in in so many different areas, it's almost like this this barrier where people can't really quantify it, but they're like, I'm it's software. I'm I'm not good enough for that. Like >> yeah. >> Is that sort of the the thing that you experience with these people that it's like very >> nebulous like I just know that I'm not good enough so why would I start kind of thing? >> Yeah. And even like they're sometimes I'll challenge them on it. I'm like okay so what would it look like for you to be ready? Like just show me. So you're not there. So what would it look like? And most of the time they're just like uh just not this. I'm like nope not good enough. If like if you're not succeeding what is the pattern of success? But that's that's the the illogical nature of anxiety is >> it >> it's all about what you don't have and like how the how safety or how achieving is all unattainable to you. So it's all about the not about how to get there. And so I mean I I have an anxiety disorder so I'm like I have lots of experience with anxiety >> and you you recognize it and understand like when people are into these patterns you're like I know what's happening. So that's good for you to be able to identify it. >> Yeah. I'm like, "Yeah, my anxiety is equally illogical and annoying. I hear that. I get that." Um, and so yeah, a lot of it is challenging that. And a lot of it also is even sharing my journey where I'm like, "Okay, describe to me how you see me." >> And they're like, "Well, you're this way. You're that way." And I just listen. I'm like, "Okay, do you think I know how to do this?" Like, "Oh, for sure you know how to do that." I'm like, "Okay, do I know how to do this?" They're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." I'm like, "Cool." So basically, none of what you said is true. I don't know how to do any of that. >> Um, like I know how to do this pretty well. I learned this on the job. I used to know this. I forgot all of it. >> And I use I mean Google and I are the closest of friends. I search everything all the time. So yeah, >> I think part of it is you have to help people see outside of themselves because that's the only life they're living, right? In just a very philosophical way. It's just the only thing they can see. So, what helped me a lot is honestly being an English teacher helped because being a teacher is one of the most it's the most overwhelmed I've ever felt in my life. It's like I'm responsible for the education of these 25 children. Are you sure? I don't know if I know. >> It's not even just one person that you're helping. Right. It's like I have a group of people like semester over semester where you're like >> I'm part of their entire learning journey. I'm a stepping stone in that journey. Like this is a huge impact in someone's life. >> Yeah. Even like even now I don't know if my boss would appreciate this but even now like when I get super stressed at work I have to remind myself I'm like you're not teaching anyone to read Cali. You're not teaching them to write an essay. It's okay. You're just making money for rich people something about software. It's okay. Don't worry about it. It's not a big deal. Um so I take it seriously. >> Certain boundaries, right? Like that's or else we would all go, you know, lose our minds doing it. So >> yeah, for sure. So yeah, I think talking through it is really helpful just to to challenge the anxiety and to to help people see like, okay, you think I'm successful, let me tell you like I I think I am successful, but your definition of it is all wrong and let me tell you how I'm actually succeeding and what actually makes me excel. >> So >> yeah, the definition of success that you're experiencing is not like yes, I've mastered every language. Yes, I know every technical detail possible. Um, yes, I've never messed up on any code I've written. It's more like, yes, I have a a job that I enjoy. Yes, I I'm skilling up constantly. Yes, I'm learning. Yes, I'm being challenged. Like, yeah, these are all good things, not I've mastered everything. And I think people see that mastery or people that are in career and they're like, well, you >> the only way that you're there is you must have mastered this, right? Like that's how you got the job. >> No, definitely not. Yeah. And it's it's wild, too, like there's so many there's so many parts of even the interview process that aren't a part of real life. Like nobody inverts binary trees. Okay, that's not a thing. Maybe somebody does a back room. >> Very it's very specific um types of things. Uh >> this is one of my my passions to talk about is like the the huge focus on and I don't mean to bash it, but things like lead code, right? Like >> Oh, hate lead code personally. >> Yeah. Like I don't I would never recommend someone practice lead code for being on the job >> to me. It just doesn't translate. That's not to say that there aren't roles and types of software that you're building where you're like, "Hey, like these lead code problems for these types of optimizations would work really well here." I'm there's always going to be exceptions to it, but like I've been doing this for a while and I've never seen a lead code problem where I was like, "Oh man, thank God I knew that lead code problem." Um, but lead code is super helpful for interviewing. Uh, I don't like that, but it is. I practice lead code for my EM role and like >> wasn't happy, but I'm like, I got to do it. So, yeah. >> Absolutely. Yeah. It's a thing you just But I think that can also set people up to be like this is my job and I'm like no like my actual job is challenging but it is way easier than the interview process and it's way easier than even the school I went to launch school because they prepared you to go through the interview process. And so I remember people would always ask me like oh you have a new job like how's it going? I'm like honestly it's like way easier than my last six months of my life. And I think personally, I think for you, it's probably easier because you have a set of skills that aren't the set of skills that everyone's chasing, right? >> That's true. >> Everyone's chasing these super super technical skills, trying to master those, which is good. Like, you want to be able to constantly improve in this space, but I think you have a bit of a superpower that a lot of other people don't have that have been focused so long on how do I learn every JavaScript framework? how do I learn every language >> and that's communication and I think >> if I may assume uh maybe like the teaching pathway for you probably helped a lot with that. Oh yeah. Yeah. I owe a lot to teaching and even you know during the interview so there's the behavioral interview of course right >> where you also need to prepare for need to have stories and I remember the stories I told I told a few from when I was building I built something in open source before I worked at New Relic and so I talked about working on a team for that but I also shared stories of when I ran an international service project in South India and >> nothing to do with programming right >> has nothing but it works it has to do with working with people and I remember I was I was interviewing doing at a very big company and the EM was like blown away by my answer. He's like, "Wow, that's such a valuable lesson." I'm like, "Yeah, I learned that when I was 20, when I was running a trip." So, yeah, there's there's so much that that comes up. And even to this day, like I just don't want to name drop, but I'm still good friends with the the EM um at that company. And every once in a while, like it just doesn't the stars haven't aligned for us to work together. But every quarter or so, one of us will reach out and be like, "You know what? What jobs do you have? Maybe I'll come and maybe we'll we'll see." But it just hasn't worked out. But he's always said like he what he loves about me is he's like, "Cali, your emotional intelligence is off the charts. Like you can work with anyone. You can accomplish anything." And his words, not mine, but he's like, "You can learn the tech. That's so easy to learn. >> But everything else about you, man, just please, please come work for me." Yeah. And that's a I think a really key part, right? The tech. So, everyone's focused on learning the tech. The reality is when it comes to learning tech, like the way that you learn, I think the most optimal way is you spend the time doing it. >> Yeah. >> The best way to spend the time doing it is I mean >> building things like on the job you're going to be doing these things. You will have to learn. >> Yeah. Um, the part that's really challenging is learning these other skills because a lot of it like communication and like human skills because a lot of that is like you need to be practicing those interactions and a lot of that in my opinion I don't have like a psychology background or anything like that but I'm assuming that a lot of that stuff is formed over a long period of time especially as you're you're growing up and stuff like that. So, I suspect that a lot of that is uh perhaps I don't want to say ingrained, but like closer to being ingrained than just let me just go pick up a book and now I'm an excellent communicator. >> Yeah. And there's thing it's definitely more ingrained because we had to communicate far before we needed to learn JavaScript, right? So, we've been communicating since we were born basically. Yeah. >> And versus JavaScript it's you know maybe a few decades at most. But it's also I feel like we're a lot more motivated to learn languages or frameworks like hey your manager comes to you and is like I need you to on ramp onto Java because we're going to take a Kofka consumer so need you to figure that out. So it's very actionable and very like goal oriented. >> Good point >> versus communication. I mean, we have more opportunities to practice that, frankly, because we can do it inside and outside of work, but we're not as motivated because we're just we're very like, well, this is just who I am and like this is just my opinion. This is just how I talk and if someone has a problem with it, it's a them thing versus if you don't know Java, you really can't blame that on someone else. Like, no, that that's a you thing for sure. Versus communication's easier to offload on someone and say, well, they're the one that's wrong. And you're like, well, actually, it's you, but okay. >> Yeah. this and I really like this point like this responsibility about communication. I don't think a lot of people take that responsibility. No, >> they you know I'm say it's well let's let's frame it for work because this can obvious communication happens in and outside of work but you know at work you're working on something you're working with colleagues or different teams and when you're communicating with different people if they're not getting it a lot of the time it kind of feels like well I mean maybe they're I don't know maybe this person's not smart I don't know like maybe it's their problem like >> we a lot of the time don't want to take responsibility for it Because we think how we're communicating is like that's how we communicate. That must be the right way. There is no other way. >> Their problem. >> Yeah. >> Absolutely. And that's that's actually one of the lessons uh that I shared in my other interview where I am so grateful I learned this lesson early. Gosh, it hurt. But and that is that like the majority of people we interact with, not only do they think their way of communicating is the best way, but they genuinely think it's the only way. like what rational human being would do anything besides what I'm doing? And if you're confused the way I'm communicating, you're just you're just weird. Like you're just off. There's just something off about you. >> Um and so, but we have to learn to adapt to people when we talk to them because everyone everyone is so different. And like I kind of like to raise that sometimes when um I gave I gave someone on my team some pretty like direct and in-depth feedback because I know that's what she likes. She likes direct and in I mean like I wrote like a thousandword essay, okay? Like it was long. Um because like I knew she would want to know all the examples I could think of the impact of it. Like I knew that's what she wanted because I just know her. And so she she said near at the end like she like, "Man, I just love the way you came and talked to me." And I'm like, "Well, you know, I'm I'm grateful you liked it." But like in my I would hate if someone came to me like that. I would feel so attacked and feel like so destroyed. I'm just like, "Give me like a 10word message, not like a thousand words." And so >> or imagine having someone dropping that on you like without being prompted. They're just like, "Hey, by the way, >> I have some good feedback for you. Here you go." You'd be like, >> "Yeah, cuz I would >> need to work again." >> Exactly. I just feel so hurt that they didn't tell me like before and they'd be like holding this in. But for her, she doesn't like like in passing things cuz she's like it's just if it's one thing, just let it go. >> So, she likes to establish patterns. There's another person on my team who yeah would die if I ever did that to them. And they're more of like a just do like a soft touch like, "Hey, you did this. I did this. Can you not do that? Thanks so much." That's all they want. That's what I want, too. But like all of those people think that's the only way and that's the best way, >> right? >> So those people clearly have tension sometimes because they're both talking their way. Versus I'm like, okay, who am I talking to? What do I need to say? All right, I need to adapt it this way. And they're like, "Wow, Cali just gets us so much." And I'm like, "Well, it takes work." But yeah. Yeah. It's >> Yeah. It's this realization that people are different, right? like the the thing that you're providing ultimately is the same. It's feedback in this case, right? Like people hopefully people value feedback. Um I would say that people that don't value feedback, it's probably not that they don't. It's just that they haven't found something that feels like it >> I mean doesn't hurt is something that they can action. But I think people value it because people genuinely want to continue to improve. But >> that's ultimately what you're providing for these individuals. But how you do it looks very different. >> We see this in many ways even recognition, right? Um something I had a great uh HR leader early in my career and she from like day one because when I became an EM I'm like I have no idea what I'm doing. Okay. Basically just graduated and was coding and they're like we need an EM and I'm like I don't know. But one of the things that she told me very early on was like everything's situational. Like >> if like if I can teach you one thing basically, it's situational leadership. And >> one of the examples that sticks out to me when you're talking about feedback, the other thing is recognition. >> Um I learned very early on that people prefer to be recognized in different ways. So, for example, a lot of time people will be like, "You need to recognize people on your team and like so go speak about them, right? Like you're if you're doing a presentation, make sure you're including their name or blast emails out." I'm like, >> I've worked with enough people to know now that like some people hate that. >> They can't stand it. Um, like makes them want to crawl into a hole and never come into work again. But what they do appreciate, send them a message. Hey, thanks so much. This is really awesome. like you did great work. >> Yeah. >> Same thing that you're doing. You're giving them, you know, gratitude. You're being thankful, recognizing them, but how you do it looks different. And it's a communication thing, right? It's they value something different. >> Yeah. And even like as an EM just a very well you tell me if this is wrong because I'm not an EM is what occurs to me could be a good path is like just ask >> like ask your direct report like especially when you just start working with them and they're like you know it's still the honeymoon phase you can like ask all these questions be like hey you know I I know you're going to do some great work and I love to recognize people when they do that what's the best way I can recognize that for you I can do it this way I can do it that way I can just keep it in Slack and just tell you I can say I'm part of the team what are your thoughts I want to honor you the way that you like that. You know, just don't guess, just ask. >> Absolutely. It's uh and it's like so totally as an EM. Yes. Same thing for uh what keeps you engaged, right? Like >> I always tell people on my teams like not every day is going to be the most exciting work. There's going to be days where you're like, man, I don't want to do this. >> I wish I could change that. It's just like that's kind of the reality of life in general. And overall though, I want to make sure people have projects that they're working on that are challenging, engaging, that kind of thing. So overall, that's what I want. Remember, some days are going to be kind of crappy. So >> yeah, >> I ask them like, >> "What is it that keeps you engaged? Like what do you like?" Some people will say like, "I just want really difficult challenges that I can overcome." Other people will say the opposite where they're like if I have something that's like keeping me blocked like I just need something that I feel like I can be delivering code like I want to feel like I'm >> I'm adding value versus feeling stuck. So having that huge wall to kind of jump over like >> uh you know I want a smaller wall but I also want to make sure I have like things that I can just you know crank out value. So >> this just comes back to like yeah asking questions. You don't need to be an EM to be in a position where you can ask people like how they prefer to be communicated with and interacted with. Um, you know, if you're new to a team and stuff and you're meeting people on the team, find find a good time to bring it up in conversation and ask about like, hey, like you could say like I like getting feedback this way. If you don't mind, like could you do that for me? And hey, what about you? Like if there was an opportunity for feedback, like how would you prefer that? I mean, finding a natural way to do it, not just like springing it on someone, but >> Yeah. Yeah. Asking them. No, I think that's that's so true because I love the point, too, that you don't have to be an EM because I think like I I don't mean to like downplay my technical abilities. Like, I think I'm technically great, but I'm not a savant or like a prodigy or like God's gift to technology. Like, I'm not that's not me. That's not me at all. like your your technical skills you learned you built them up over time but it's not like you were you were born and you were like I am JavaScript like >> yeah I didn't I also didn't I also didn't like I'm not one of those engineers who like I didn't say like oh yeah I tinkered with Raspberry Pies when I was four like no I I did not I did break my mom's computer a few times accidentally but I was exploring it's fine um so sure there was curiosity there which I think is is one of my skills is insatable curiosity but it's not like I'm just so obsessed with tech. And so when when I look back on how I even just became a senior in a in a very short amount of time and it's and I mean New Relic is a big company and being senior is like a big deal but I I think I delivered well technically but I'm like you know my biggest contribution during that time was my team didn't have a manager for about a year and myself and a few others on the team helped lead and I think the interpersonal ways that I led the team through some really difficult things. Difficult like changing priorities, lots of changing leadership, people didn't want to work on stuff, people didn't want to work together and just like helping everyone navigate through that. I am so sure like that's that's one of the biggest reasons that my manager at the time was like, "Yeah, you're you're for sure ready for senior." So, it's I think a lot of times, of course, there's companies who prioritize other things, right? There's companies who are like unless you can make these infrastructure decisions in your sleep, you cannot be a senior. I'm like, okay, whatever. >> And also, I don't know, I'm getting a rabbit hole, but like titles are subjective and leveling is subjective. At the same time, after you're a junior or mid-level, um I was talking to some senior managers actually at my company a few weeks ago and they said in promotion conversations, no one is talking about your technical abilities. No one. Because like all the managers get together and there's only so many promotions that can go out and so no one's like, "Well, but my person really knows JavaScript. My person really knows Kubernetes." They're like, "No, did you see how much she led that initiative? Did you see how he handled when production went down and got all those people to work together? That's what they're talking about." And so we can become the the even like the company's expert on Kubernetes, on JavaScript, and they're going to love having you as a senior until you die because you're not demonstrating something more that they can actually lean on. And that's a lot more than tech. It's your ability to communicate and work with people. >> Yeah, absolutely. On the on the promotion conversations for sure and you you touched on this too, like >> of course any type of advice or whatever is going to look different at different places. Like there's >> we can't just generalize every single company. It's impossible. But >> yeah, like even in my in my management career >> going into promotion conversations, >> I don't think there's been a time where it's been like for me it's been a lot ofNet, right? It's not like, oh, this person just knows so much about C. >> Yeah. >> Like it's just like that's going to be something that everyone is building up over time. I would say for more junior people, it might be something where we're like, hey, this person is spending time ramping up in C. Like that might come up, but You know once you reach a certain point it's like the conversation is about impact and impact can look very different right impact is generally not you know a lot of something >> because knowing something is not impact >> if you know something and you are sort of facilitating a whole bunch of different things because of your knowledge like sure but again we're not going to be saying oh it's because they know something. we would be talking about the impact that you're leveraging that knowledge for. >> So >> impact is really the focus and that can absolutely look like leading technical initiatives. Um a lot of that has to do with how you're communicating to do it. >> So I wanted to touch on that saying yes from my experience that's 100% >> in alignment. And something I think that's interesting about that is leading initiatives right and bringing it back to communication. Like we were talking about this idea that your way to communicate isn't always like the right way. You have to be situational. >> Why should people care about that? >> Right? Like >> why why do you care that the the project manager on this other team that you're talking to? Like why do you care that they understand what you're saying? Like isn't it just their problem if they don't get it? Like you got better things to do. You got more JavaScript to go learn. Like what you know what's why why should you care? Nick, you're make you're making me angry. Okay, you're triggering me with your question. So, the basic answer is because that's the only way to get anything done. That's that is the heart of it is even if you are the best JavaScript practitioner in the universe, you have to work with other people to get stuff done because you don't talk directly to customers unless you're like a one person startup then sure. Okay, you do everything. But >> yes, that's that's a good point right there. Again, anyone watching it might be like, "Hold on, I have a different opinion on this." Like, "I don't work with anyone." It's like, "Well, yeah. Okay. Well, >> yeah, if you're not working with anyone, then you probably don't have a lot of money, so we're not talking to you." So, um, yeah. So, I think being able to get anything done because I think about right now, so on my team, right? So, there's six people on my team. I also have a manager, there's a product manager, there's sort of an architect we have, and there's someone else who's like, she's an honorary person on our team. She is like a stakeholder but like a glorified stakeholder I guess we'll call her. >> So those are all the people and when we're getting stuff done when we're choosing the work or we're implementing work I talk to all those people to make sure I do the right work. So even right now I'm implementing this big feature in one of our internal applications and I'm pinging our glorified stakeholder like every day to be like hey I'm doing there's other I realize there's more decisions I need to make and so I'm like okay do I need should I do it this way or this way well this way makes more sense to me but maybe she'll want this way and she's closer to the customers so I could just assume and I could write all the code I can write all the tests I can push it to production and realize I'm wrong and I just wasted weeks of my life, >> right? >> And I'm about to waste more weeks fixing it. >> So, I think even just that basic part, but then there's other things like you're you're not in charge. Unless you are, in which case this is not for you. >> But like if you're not in charge, like I might have a really strong opinion, but at the end of the day, it's my manager's choice. >> I might wish it's my choice. I can maybe influence his choice, but it is his choice. So when there's three top priority things and I go to him and say, "Okay, which which of these three do you want me to do?" Because first place only has place for one place. So which of these three things do you want me to do right now? Like he has to decide that. But the way I try to influence his decision, the way I receive information from him, the way I build up rapport with my manager so that I can influence decisions later and I compromise on things and I can can be pitched for promotions or even how I word things. I'm sorry, I'm just going on a tangent now, but when I word things like there's there's three seniors on my team and maybe there's a an initiative that we really really want to do, >> right? But it kind of only makes sense to software engineers. It doesn't really makes like I can see how our manager would be like that's low priority and his >> maybe some tech debt or something like that to go address it. >> Exactly. He could be like oh we can just sweep that under the rug. And so I'm like so now I have to figure out how do I take what we need to do and translate it into the language of a business objective so that it makes sense to him and it makes sense to his boss. So all of them and I'm not tricking them. I'm just telling them the truth in the way they need to hear it because if I just start >> we need to do the tech deed. Oh, you're convinced. Oh, we should go do tech. Yeah. No. >> Right. Exactly. >> So, like if it's if it's about, you know, for us we're like, well, we really want to make this more efficient, but for them it's like, hey, so this has risk of impacting customers and giving them corrupt data if we don't do this, >> right? >> Oh, well, freaking heck, we should fix that. So yeah, you have to translate it like, okay, and we knew that. We just don't really care about that as much, but they do. So all of that is critical thinking about how someone likes something. There's also things, >> okay, I probably will take a breath after this, but there's also things like people just have different communication patterns. So you can have a manager who is very, I guess, for lack of a better term, emotionally intelligent, and you can tell them like, "Hey, I'm really stressed about this. I'm really worried about this." You can also have a manager that does not care about your stress. They just need to know why it works. And so you put on your best game face and you're like, "Hey, this is going to hurt customers. This is going to make your boss mad. This is going to do this." And they're like, "Okay, we'll do that." >> Lead with data versus leading with emotions. Depending on the audience, >> right? Exactly. And both of them are real. I am stressed and there is data, but depending on which one will actually sway you, I'll use that one. And so, but that all and it's like I can be a genius at JavaScript the whole time, but I won't even be able to touch the code itself because the manager is like, "That sounds like a waste of time. Do this instead." And I'm like, "Okay." >> So, anyways, >> yeah. No, I I there's a lot of lot of good stuff in there. And I I really like that the I think the part about how you need to think about like tailoring to your audience like comes up again, right? uh in particular, not just it's almost like not even how you deliver it, but like the the points you need to make like your evidence >> depending on the stakeholder that you're communicating with. Like you had a really good example of like a stakeholder that's like >> they're going to lean into emotions because it from their perspective, it's something they're going to value higher. Mhm. >> It's not like I'm sure for these people it's not like like a concrete numeric data is not valuable, but they >> they recognize these other aspects as being important as well. And other people >> Yeah. Like like you said, like they might go >> kind of like, yeah, like it sucks you got feelings, but like we have a business and like >> we got we need data to like show. And for those types of people, like it's not like they're necessarily terrible people or something, but how they need to be able to make decisions >> can be a factor of who they have to go communicate that to. So, for example, they might even be like, "Yeah, I'm an emotional emotionally intelligent person, too, but like >> I need to go tell this person the data they need." So, I'm sorry about your experience, >> but like where's the data? Because I have to go tell Joe over here, and Joe doesn't give a crap. >> Nope. Does not care. Joe does not care about your feelings. >> So, so you have to Yeah. You really have to understand that. And I think like >> that's a skill, right? >> Oh, yeah. >> If you don't practice that, if you don't think about that being a real thing, >> like, and I love that you said too, it's not like you're tricking people. It's not like, yeah, how do I manipulate people to like get anything I want? It's like >> the way that this is framed is that we all are looking at things where we're like, we think that there's a high amount of value in this. Mhm. >> So we have different everyone's going to have different perspectives about what a priority is, >> what's most valuable, and if you believe in it, you want to be able to communicate that to other people so that they can try to get on the same page as you. >> Ultimately, the goal when people do this is not to say I must always be right. >> When you go to do this type of communication, your goal should not be yes, I got the manager to do exactly what I wanted. Because if that manager came back to you and said, "I get that." Like, "Thank you for the data. >> Here's some other information that you might not have had." >> And you go, "Oh crap." >> Good to know. >> I totally get why that other thing is a priority. >> Um, >> I wanted to tie this back and I always try to latch on to tech debt things because it gets me gets me going. Um, >> oh yeah, I hear you. Let's do it. >> And I love talking about tech debt because for eight years of my career, I was a software engineer and a manager at the same time. Oh gosh. >> I got to ride the line of we want to do all the tech debt and look, we can't do all the tech debt. I got to be both sides of it. And unfortunately, a lot of the code was my tech debt. So, um >> I'm the problem. >> So, I'm the problem. I want to be the solution. And I have to tell people, we can't go solve it all the time. >> Um a lot of the advice that I see, especially from a lot of content creators, is just go fix just go fix don't ask for permission. Just go fix the tech debt. M >> and I go, okay, part of me gets it. Part of me gets that you want to when you're touching code, leave it better than when you got there. I get it. Um, the other part of me is like, I think the only way that that works, and I think people make assumptions about this, is that you need to have clear alignment with your team, not just your peers, with your product owner, your manager. >> What do you guys value? Because if you truly value just making sure that every variable is named perfectly, uh every method can't have more than five lines of uh logic in it, like if those are things that your team values more than anything else, spend the time cleaning the code all the way. >> Yeah. >> If you value delivering value to customers, maybe you want to change a little bit about how you prioritize. >> And I think that the like they call it like boy scouting, right? >> Maybe girl scouting or any other type of scouting. Yeah, scout scouting. Um, I think that the concept is great, but I think the implementation only works well if everyone is aligned on on the value. >> Absolutely. >> The absolutely >> one other thing that I want to add into this is that it's almost like the advice I'm seeing is like rebel, right? Like don't ask for permission. >> You're the software engineer. You know better. And I'm like, okay. You do know better about the code than the non-technical stakeholders. Like that would it would be stupid to say otherwise. >> Yeah. >> But you know better about the code. You know better about the business priorities. >> And if you constantly feel that you are always having to battle people about the code needs work because the tech that's so great it's holding us back. It's terrible to work in. and you constantly feel like you're doing that and working with your product owner who is like, "We don't care. These val like these features, these bug fixes have to go." If that's a never- ending battle, do you think that constantly being like, "Well, we're just going to do what we want and sneak in the tech that like is that going to fix anything ever or do you think that might perhaps perpetuate the entire problem until the end of time?" >> Yeah. So communication I feel like is the solution there. >> Yeah, absolutely. I I totally agree. And even like taking a step back is I I'm a very I've become a very direct person and just a very honest person. Um it gets me in trouble sometimes where people like just like ap like apologize, don't ask for permission. And I'm like no, I I just I like to be upfront about stuff and it really bothers me when I can't be. And so, and there's other thing there's other problems too where I'm just thinking about when you're saying that there's a really key part of one our one of our GraphQL services that um two engineers that I work with, they both really want to refactor it, but if left to their own devices, they would both drastically do it differently. >> And like one person like person A would make it worse in the eyes of person B and person B would make it worse in the eyes of person A. So I'm like if one of them were to just go make a PR on that that would not be good. That would cause so many problems on our team, >> right? >> And and then ultimately like what's what's the side effect of that? Like >> it is just costing more time. >> And >> again, it's not to say that these people suggesting this like the the motivation is wrong. I think the motivation is right. We want to have good code bases that we can continue to work. >> Absolutely. If you're touching anything, of course, if you can make it better, that's like that's an ideal thing. But I think what people don't realize is that there are lots of and maybe I don't know, maybe people haven't had enough experiences on different teams, but there are plenty of teams where people don't have the alignment within the team. >> I've worked with engineers that will say they'll do this and they're like, I just started refactoring it. And they go months. They go months refactoring it. And it's it's a rewrite, right? It's not refactoring. It's a rewrite. >> And then if I talk to people about this, they're like, "Well, that's not refactoring. That's rewriting. So automatically your arguments out the window or that should have been caught in standup. Like, why did someone let that happen?" And I go, >> "That's exactly right. This is exactly why I'm telling you this doesn't always work." >> Yeah. >> My point. >> You're literally proving my point. So when you start constraining the definitions of things to make a post about it, >> I'm like, yeah, it's going to feel like perfectly artificial like in this bubble, but in reality >> requires clear communication, requires value alignment, requires understanding priorities and >> like that doesn't come for free. >> Yeah. And we just we can't be we can't be rogue agents. Like it's it's just disrespectful honestly. Like it's disrespectful to your colleagues. it's disrespectful to the company that employed you even if they're being silly with their priorities. Like at the end of the day they're still in charge and that's something like there are so many times that I mean I'm a very opinionated person so I disagree with people all the time but there are plenty of times where even my company I'm like I disagree. I think you are hurting the business by doing it but it is your right to do that because you are in charge. >> I disagree with it but >> and you have all of the tools at your disposal if you're like I don't agree with this right. If you're like, I need I need to understand why. >> Yeah, you're an excellent communicator, right? You could go down the channels and go find the information you need and eventually if you meet with another person who's great at communicating, they might be able to say or frame it in a way where you're like, "Oh, like that is the value that you have decided is like a higher priority or has more weight to it." >> Yeah. >> Assuming that that does have more weight, >> then yeah, like I could see why that would be a priority instead, right? And I think a lot of the time it comes down to like weight of values because people will say like this thing's a priority versus this one. And if you're looking if you're doing like a pros and cons analysis about the different things we value, >> like a lot of the same things come up, but people disagree or they're not aware that other people value or place a higher weight on certain things. >> Yeah. >> Right. And again, you got to communicate that. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's such a great point too cuz I think the default which I mean sometimes we don't we can't control stuff and so we just default to getting into small groups and like whining and complaining which I mean I do that so I'm not blasting anyone but >> sure it's like a human thing to want to do that to like get it off your chest right >> but if you really want to know something is like there's a huge difference between talking to your manager your manager's manager and saying like I I really don't like that we're doing this I really don't think we should there's that that's option A right or you jump on a call with them and you say, "Hey, so I saw in dev announcements that we're now doing this priority. Um, honestly, I don't really understand it because I feel like that's at odds with this. Can you help me understand that cuz it's just not tracking for me?" Like, that's such a respectful invitation. Even if you're like, "I hate this. I hate the person. I hate everything. I want everyone to die." Like just keep it on the inside for now and just ask ask a respectful question and you can learn so much more than if you're just like I bet they're doing it because of this and I bet this is happening because of this. Like you legit don't know, dude. You just don't know. >> Yeah. And it's like it's funny. It's there's something that I always try to come back to which is like best intentions, right? Um the people that you work with, I would hope in any organization people aren't malicious, right? If something seems malicious, I feel like it's because there's a lack of understanding. Um, I'm not trying to say that no one can be malicious, but it feels >> mean people in the world, but yeah, >> like statistically the people that you're working with are probably not like I can't wait to sabotage the company or can't wait to sabotage like Cali like I'm coming after Cali. Like that's my life mission as a sabotager. So, >> if you're feeling like you're being sabotaged, like I just think that instead of defaulting to it, which is >> it can feel normal and natural to be like, oh, like it's all on me now. >> Like try to park that feeling and be like, >> what what's happening? Like why do I feel this way? Like what is it about this situation that's making me feel this way? >> And then go seek to understand because >> otherwise you hyperfocus on like all of the negative. It's all on you. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And I just feel like that's generally not reality. So, >> yeah. I feel like the biggest thing that happens is people are maybe thoughtless of you. Like they're like, "Oh, I didn't think about how that would impact Cali." Maybe, but they're not like like you said, "Today is a day to make Callie's life like be destroyed." Like, no one no one has a time for that. >> Yeah. Like I think that's almost like a selfish way to go through life is to people want to like attack me. It's like I think people got better things to do. >> Yeah. They don't even remember your name. Honestly, they don't know who you are. They don't. I'm sorry. >> Well, on this note, there was uh one more point I wanted to get to and it's on code reviews because I think that this is like a really important >> like sort of segue into this, but like we're talking about these emotional responses to things and I think that >> code reviews, poll requests, they are like the perfect opportunity for things just to go wrong in this regard. >> Oh yeah. >> Um >> Oh yeah. I think people have different opinions about code reviews in the first place. Some people like more and more are saying like we don't even need code reviews. Like what's the point? Like you should be able to have static analysis do all the work for you. And like part of me is like sure there's things like that that would help. But one of the huge benefits of code reviews in general is just to have insight and visibility and it's another form of communicating like >> what's going on. >> Absolutely. >> Then we get the feedback part. And I think the feedback part, back to communication, like written communication >> is generally pretty terrible. And written communication when it's condensed into something tiny >> is arguably like one of the worst ways maybe um to communicate. Maybe aside from just like blinking at each other, but um so much room for just like so much room for misunderstanding um like tone of like it sounds kind of silly maybe to some people because they're not thinking about it, but tone of voice like you can't see someone's body language when like I talk with my hands a lot like you can't see someone's body language when they're leaving you comments. And I think and I'm gonna shut up in just a moment, but I think one of the things that happens on code reviews >> is that you get feedback and your code is a lot of the time like a translation of how your brain works. >> Yeah. >> Right. So you write code, it's an algorithm. It's a flow of like this is this is how I think. It's just in code. Now >> someone comes along and they're like this is wrong. And you're like >> how do you not take that personally cuz it's literally my brain in code. So like how dare you? >> You're mean. >> Yeah. Uh absolutely. So h so many angles. Uh I'm thinking so three different angles I'm thinking through is like there's there's a way to accept stuff more graciously like however people mean it or they don't mean it like to accept things better. And there's also ways to give comments better. Um, >> so I guess I'll start with the first one of just like receiving it better. Um, honestly that's hard. And a lot of the way I do it is I um there's a couple couple things I do internally and externally. So internally sometimes someone will write a comment and yeah, it's like that is my ego put in a PR. How dare you tell me I missed an edge case in my test. I will destroy you. Do you know how many edge cases you've missed in your PRs? you know, there's always things PRs, huh? >> Yeah. Yeah. Let's do a let's do a sideby-side comparison. Um, so something I try to do is there's there's one person on my team especially, there's a few, but there's one especially that I'm very very like good friends with. Um, and so something I do in my head sometimes is when somebody writes critique on my PR, I say if that person that I love, if she wrote this comment, would I be upset? Ah, >> and the answer is usually no because it's like, okay, so you're upset because it's this person because you're salty about something else or because they already hurt your feelings or because you think you code better than them. But like they still have a valid point. So if this person wrote it and it was a good point, it should still be a good point because of that. >> It's the point itself, not not the person giving it. and the >> the framing that we can attach to like you you're reading it in someone's voice and you're imagining them saying it to you and um you can invent the tone of voice. You can >> how people communicate. They might have been like in their head they're reading your code review and they're like, "Hey, this is pretty awesome." Like, "Oh, typo here. Like, I'll just make sure they catch that." And then they leave a one comment on the whole review that's like, "Fix this typo." And you're like, "Dude, literally like that's all you got out of this, right?" Like you're so picky. like I'm never going to put you on a review again. >> Literally. >> And in their head, they were like, "This code was awesome. I only found one tiny thing." Like, "Great job, Cali." >> And you just completely invented like, "I know, hate this person." >> You're like, "Man, do you know how many typos I found for your stuff? Your stuff sucks." You're like, "Okay." >> Look at all those typos go for you. Like, you're so mean. >> Yeah. Exactly. So, I do think that's that's one part is I try to think of someone or even it's not someone on your team. If you're like, "Well, I hate everyone on my team." Like, okay, think of a nice person in the universe and if they wrote the comment, >> because it's not supposed to be malicious. People aren't attacking you. >> They want the code to be in a good spot. Uh they might be trying to educate you as well depending on your expertise in the area. Like, if there's new people, >> you see this a lot with new people. New people seem to be very like they're hesitant because they're like, "I'm probably going to get blasted on this this poll request." >> But they get all this feedback and if you talk with them, they're like, "Yeah, it was kind of overwhelming, but I learned so much." >> Oh, yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because they're not in a position where they're yet like, "I have to resent Joe because he caught the typo." Like, >> yeah, >> absolutely. And another thing that helps too sometimes is remember or even look at how this person reviews other people's PRs. Like if this person's coming for your neck, maybe they come for everybody's neck. Like >> it's not a personal thing. >> Yeah. That's just their thing is they they destroy people's PR. So like logically, I mean, emotionally, we'll get to that, but like logically there's nothing you can take personally. But if you're like, "Oh yeah, they let everyone through, but they come for your stuff." Then yeah, maybe like have a word with them about that or ask your manager about it. >> And and as you said, have a word with them about it. If you just go to the code review and you're like, "Okay, time for a comment battle." like I can assume you're not going to go anywhere. >> Yeah. Don't don't do that. And I think the last thing for just like taking it is um it's funny because I think you know people on my team will tell me quite a bit because I give a lot of feedback and I receive a lot and they'll say some of them have said to me like man Cali I just don't know how you take feedback so well. And I'm like it's a I'm kind of pretending like sometimes like I am a very very sensitive person very like if if my husband heard them saying like wow you just take stuff so well he'd be like who are you talking about? You're not talking about my wife. >> Yeah. Who else is in this room that you're talking to? >> Yeah. You know a different Cali. Not my Cali. So like I'm very very sensitive but I just choose to not act like it. >> Right. So when someone's like when some even if they're rude in tone like why would you do it this way? This makes no sense. I'm just like okay the heart of their the heart of their message is they don't understand why I did something. So I say something like I appreciate you raising that question. I I did it because of this website said this. So that's think but I'm very open to a different way. Let me know your thoughts. Now do I want to say that? No. >> I want to kill them. >> But >> it feels terrible right? Yeah, but I'm I'm choosing to behave the way I'm choosing to behave. And so we don't have to be like, "Wow, strong feeling must express." You don't. Literally, you don't. Um, and so I act like the person I desire to be, >> even when my feelings in that moment are like, "Man, I'm so mad. I want to mad this person, but it's like, okay, Cali, but if this other person wrote it, this is how you would respond. So, choose to respond that way." And I am in control of my actions, so I can do that. Sometimes it means I get feedback on a PR and I'm like, I'm let that one sit till tomorrow. We're going to come back when I'm more level-headed. >> And that's totally okay, right? Like um you kind of said like just because you have an emotional response doesn't mean like get to the keyboard and let the emotions out. Like >> yeah, >> probably more often than not, we should be taking a moment to step back. Oh yeah. >> Because >> like our jobs should not be driven by emotions that way. And if you're finding like that's how you're making decisions and communicating like >> it might mean that you need a little bit more time to kind of sit back, process, get back to like a logical state and and reflect on it before moving forward. >> And I think one other thing which kind of feels like a left term, but I just want to include another group of people because I think what's really important too about communication about all these nuances and these rules is there are people for sure who are just they're choosing to be jerks. like that is just a path they have chosen for whatever reason. And there's but there's other people who like I mean they they just don't know how to respond in a way that makes people feel happier or makes and so like I'm I'm I'm neurode divergent in different ways like I have ADHD and I'm an HSP but like I don't I'm not neurode divergent in that way where there's the nuance sometimes of conversations whether spoken or written or like why can't I just be direct and I mean I'm honestly team direct but so many times you can't be like it just doesn't it doesn't go well for you or for them. And so I think a lot of it too is when we when we encounter these these issues is not only should we talk to the person or talk to our manager, talk to a colleague, but like it just it is a skill. And so you might suck at it as much as you were so terrible at Ruby back in the day or C. Like there was a time you didn't know how to declare a variable. Okay, that that existed. And maybe that's where you're at with your soft skills or your social skills. And like I just I hate when people give up on themselves cuz it like you said earlier, it just kind of feels like an innate thing and they're like, "Well, >> yeah, >> this is just me. It's where I'm at." And I'm like, "No, it's just your starting place. You can be so much better." >> When did you start working on these skills? Well, I haven't. And it's like, >> yeah, >> that's why you don't have it. >> Yeah. You were starting at the beginning and that's okay because we all have to, right? Um >> Yeah. because I've just I've worked with people on my team and like it's funny because they'll come to me now like certain people who just struggle with communicating in high stakes environments and now like after meetings they'll message me and they're like did I come across like like a total jerk in that meeting or I'm thinking about sending this message to our manager do you think it's worded well and I'm like that's that's what you do like even even I do that and so sometimes when I'm feeling super emotional or I'm really upset or I just I don't know what to do like I have sent so many emails to one of my friends named Brody And I'm like, can you make this sound diplomatic? Because what I write is like, hey, I know you asked for this this document, but you never gave me the other document, so I don't know who you think you are asking me for this document. Anyways, can you give it to me? And then Brody translates it. And he's like, hey, hope you're doing well. Wanted to follow up on this document. Um, really would like to do it for my commits this Thursday. Let me know if that's possible. And I'm like, yeah, that that's what I should have written. That's fair. >> Right. >> So, we all we all need the help and the training, too. So, yeah. >> No, that's that's super cool. And I I definitely appreciate the having the person you can reach out to and and get some, you know, like a sounding board. I' I've definitely done that uh for some folks on my team. Um >> nice >> where especially from different uh where English isn't first language for a couple of people and they're communicating >> um you know as a as a third party like watching a conversation and and knowing the individuals more personally because of one-on ones and stuff like that. Yeah, >> I've watched conversations unfold where I see someone say something and I'm like, in my head I'm like, I wonder like how that's going to land. I know where they're coming from and then I see it not land and then I see the other person respond and I do the same thing where I'm like, >> I wonder how that's going to land. And I just kind of see it all unfold and I go, >> "Yeah, >> okay. Um, >> we'll give it a moment and see if people kind of get on track from it." And like I've had, you know, one-on-one conversations about that kind of stuff just to to clear the air and and then going forward sometimes I'll have these people reach out and they'll say like, "Hey, like I'm having this conversation on the side like this is how I'm interpreting this email or this message like could you maybe like >> kind of run by that with me and help me understand like if I'm getting it the same way?" And I think that's super cool because >> they're having this ability to start recognizing like I'm having a response to something >> and I I don't think it's how someone's intended it. >> So I need to pause. And I think that's the very first step is like pause for a moment and you can decide what to do on that. Maybe for these individuals if they just waited a few hours they would you know they they'd come to their own answer without me. And in these cases, I'm very glad they reached out, right? Like I want to help them with that kind of stuff. No one wants to be like, I can't I feel like I can't do my job effectively because >> of communication, right? Like we don't want that to be the barrier. And that's why it's important. >> Yeah. No, 100%. And I love that that you can be that for people because I think again it just it feels so much easier to say, why is my code not working versus why is my communication not working? Like, yeah, >> it's just it's easier to separate it and it's just easier to be like, yeah, everyone asks for help on that, but people don't ask for help on messages. I'm like, we should all ask for help on messages. Every single one of us. >> Absolutely. Yeah. No, I think that's a that's a key point. And on key points, I actually think there's a couple of things that I I think are really awesome takeaways from this conversation. There's a lot. Um, but I think two that stuck out to me. I really liked how you talked about when you're communicating with different stakeholders like the framing of the value that they're looking for. >> Um, >> sometimes I've talked about this where I still frame it the other direction. I'm like you want to like you're trying to sell it to them. So think about like who you're talking to, but I've almost not really framed it as like this person is trying to pull this information from you, right? Like they want to hear about the emotional impact they want or they want to hear the data. like I thought that was a good way to frame it. Um, definitely helped me. And I think the other thing I talk about code reviews and and communication a lot. But something that you mentioned that I don't think I bring up enough is like if you're feeling emotional, >> take a moment. Like >> there is nothing wrong with just pausing and like you could sleep on it. That's probably better if it's not urgent. >> Um, I often will tell people like, "Hey, like get on a call and talk it through." True. But even then, like you might it might be better to wait a little bit before you're not feeling like I can't wait to call this person and give them a piece of my mind, right? Like taking a moment, I think, can really help for um kind of getting through the emotional part. >> Yeah, absolutely. I think I also really just loved I mean I love your burden for uh tech debt. Um, I share that burden in life. But I think it's I think it's so true though is that taking the time to communicate versus like screw this, screw everyone, screw the team, I'm just going to go do it, right? >> Is like we just we kind of fancy ourselves, I don't know, like this rogue agent or this Robin Hood or something like I'm doing the good work. But it's like you're I mean this is harsh, but you're frankly being a coward because you're not doing the hard work >> of working with your team. And that's that's like tech debt is obviously like it hurts us and it gets it gets in the way of all these things, but there is a right way and a wrong way to do it. And the coward's path is not the right path. >> Yeah, I I totally agree with that. >> Hey, I said it. You can blame me. >> Well, no, this has been really cool. So, I I definitely appreciate the time. Um, Cali, I'm gonna get uh links and stuff so I can put them into comments and put them on posts and stuff, but would you want to share with folks like where they can reach out to you because I know that you also do some coaching and stuff on the side? >> Yeah, for sure. So, um, yeah, I do coach on the side. Um, so I you've also everyone's welcome to connect with me or reach out to me on LinkedIn. I'm just Cali Bushara. There is only one because my name is unique. It's just just me. Um, and I also do coaching for we talked about earlier is it's a skill. Um, so right now I'm coaching different software engineers just to really know how to do the non-technical parts. I'm not going to code review your JavaScript, but um whether it's reviewing your messages to your manager or your colleagues or how to prioritize work, how to have hard conversations, how to even manage stress, like all these if it doesn't relate to a coding language, the answer is yes. you know, you can get help with that. >> Um, so you can reach out to me on LinkedIn or go to majorityofwork.com because working with people is the majority of work. >> I like that. That's awesome. >> Got to save a little tagline there. Um, and then I guess the last thing is I I'm launching a podcast as well, which I would love to have Nick on. Nick, if you can recording that you can come on to my podcast. Um, yeah. Yeah. And that's where we'll also just be able to answer questions, interview people about soft skills. And cuz I feel like there's all this emphasis about how we need soft skills, how we need to work with people better, but there's I feel like there's a lack of, okay, cool. How the heck do I do that? And so that's the whole point of everything is not just telling you you should do it, but actually equipping you with the practicals how to do it. So >> that's I I think that's very important. I love it. Cool. Well, thanks, Callie. Um, this is a great conversation and yeah, um, if your podcast is up and running, I'd love to be a guest. So, we'll chat more about that. >> Awesome. Thanks so much, Nick. Appreciate it. >> Cool. [Music]