Should You Join A Coding Bootcamp? - Interview With Brooke Sweedar

So I >> see her. >> Anyh who, um, welcome to YouTube. >> What's the best way to get into software engineering? Is it to be self-taught? Is it to go through formal education like college or university? Or is it to go look into a boot camp? Hi, my name is Nick Cantino and I'm a principal software engineering manager at Microsoft. In this video, I was joined by Brooks Sweetheart where I did an interview with her to learn about her journey through her software engineering boot camp. Now, I have a pretty traditional software engineering journey. I knew that I wanted to do it from an early age. I went to university for it and then I went into the workforce. With Brooke, her story is a little bit different, and it's really cool for me to be able to hear about her success with her software engineering boot camp. As a result, I think it's going to be very valuable for you to hear about her experiences going through this as well. A quick reminder that if you like this kind of content, subscribe to the channel and leave me a comment below if you want to see more content like this. Thanks. Sit back, enjoy, and I'll see you next time. >> Okay, great. So, I I'm 28 years old and I did go to college right out of high school. I majored in uh marketing management and I actually didn't finish my degree. I was working towards an associates and I ended up um joining a recruiting firm and that was my start. I've been with them ever since and I was just good at it. I I learned a lot of business skills. It was very valuable and I've totally enjoyed my journey. Um, but I always kind of felt like, you know, it was a stable job and like I said, I enjoyed it. There really were no major downsides to it, but it just never felt like a true passion for me. >> Interesting. So, you had a skill at it, but not it wasn't a passion of yours. >> Yes, absolutely. And and I'm thankful that that was the case. I'd rather that than suck at it, right? And and just be like, "Oh, no." Um, so super thankful for the past 10 years of experience that I've had with that. But I always just kind of had in the back of my mind like I want to end up doing something else. I just didn't know what. And I've always loved technology. I'm a huge gamer. So for a while I I mentioned to you earlier like maybe I'll do a gaming YouTube channel. And I did not enjoy that process. That was another learning lesson for me. But I'm glad I tried it. That there are so many things out there you just aren't going to know until you dip your toe in the water, so to speak. Um, but actually I started dabbling in code because I was also in charge of doing the marketing campaigns for our recruiting firm. And so I decided to just teach myself some HTML and CSS to just make our letters look a little nicer and on on different devices and stuff like that. And I fell in love. I was like, "This is amazing." Because up until then, I had no experience with coding. I didn't never took any courses in it. Um, I never had anyone in my life that worked in tech. So, I truly just wasn't exposed to any of it at all. And I just found myself spending a lot of my free time continuing to dabble with learning uh some front-end stuff and some UX things and trying to implement that into how we do things in our firm. And it was awesome. But I found myself being like, "This is really how I want to spend my time." Um, >> interesting. But and I should ask too like this I'm assuming this was never something that you thought growing up or going into college or anything like you never thought you were going to do >> code right is that fair to say >> right never never like as a kid for years I wanted to be a chef and then I I sort I mean I don't know and then I I was like well maybe I'll major in something with business because I just knew that I wanted to end up with a career that you know I would hopefully make good money you know have stability is very important to me and then the the recruiting opportunity I sort of just fell into it and I was working part-time while I was in school and then I really fell into the role and just stuck with it and it wasn't until um towards the end of last year I was like you know what I really love this stuff like I really love this coding I'm starting to do these little projects and I just think you know if I don't take the plunge to make a change when when is that going to happen because no one else is going to do it for me I have to do it myself >> right yeah and it's so I should ask too like the you mentioned that the coding part started coming up in your role when you're looking at some marketing material and trying to uh and I think this is actually the case for a lot of people where they're they're starting in very front-end things HTML CSS and like what did you think that that was uh or maybe was it more like a forced upon you thing where you're like the thing that we're dealing with sucks so bad I have to do something about this or was it more of like a like what was the thing that kind of caused it to happen like just very curious or kind of needed to happen, >> right? Well, we we were just we were trying to uh drive new business and to try and get new clients. So, I I've worked in the manufacturing space specifically in recruiting. So, again, nothing to do with tech like I I had no insights into that side of the world at all. Um anyh who so but we we have this recruiting software that we use and you can in it you can create form letters and it it it's pretty intuitive and like generating templates for you to a point and so funny enough I didn't know what these were but those little arrow brackets there was a little symbol for that in the software and I clicked on it one day and it opened up all the HTML like the skeleton and I did not know what that was. I don't even know what made me click on it. I think I was just like, "What is this?" And I saw it and I was like, >> "Wow." Like I just and I found myself just scrolling and it was mess. Like I know now how messy it was, but I'm just jumbled together. It wasn't pretty or formatted at all. Um, but I thought it was just fascinating and I just reading through it realized, you know, the little things like font size and then it had like the content of our letters that we were sending out. I was like, "This is what's making it look the way that it is." And so um I then I saw like the HTML tags and I Googled that and I was like what is this? And that's truly just what led me it was curiosity driven by me trying to improve it. Then I was like well if I can you know make these margins a little bit or match our exact logo color versus just like the auto select of the six color options that exist typically. I was like I really want to just >> do enough. Yeah. >> Exactly. Like build our our brand a little bit better. So that was literally my entry into HTML and it's just grown from there. >> That's super cool. No, I I like hearing that because like I was mentioning to you that like my path has been kind of like I don't know when it was but I was young enough where I was like I think honestly it was probably video game related if I think back far enough. I can remember before coding for me it was like I don't know as a kid I was like I'm I'm playing video games and I'm like I want the cheat codes and stuff and I would go on the computer and I would try to see if I could once I discovered that like how like game files might be organized I'm like I'm going to go see if I can change some values in the game files and like so it wasn't coding necessarily but I was changing configs and kind of poking around and that kind of curiosity for me eventually led to the where it was like I remember my father bringing in like and he wasn't a programmer but brought in like these massive books that were like you know C++ or C programming for like Doom uh like that old old video game and I was like I remember seeing it being like that's really cool but like I'm not going to read that like it's it's almost like it's not the interest the interest isn't reading I just want to I just want to kind of be curious and poke around because I didn't know what writing code was at that point. So yeah, started as a curious thing for me, but then it was like I'm like I want to do this and everything else after that. So still like you know before going into high school I was like I know I want to write code so what path do I have to go on? So I love hearing when people kind of discover this later where they're like I didn't think that I would and then I started looking and it was like heck yeah like this is the thing for me. So that's awesome. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I agree, Nick. And you know um talking about discovery like I said I this has happened to me at a later age relative to my life right and I definitely when I was considering really making a switch and being like okay I think I want to do this for a living I definitely face some oh you know I'm too old for this I know 28 is not old but still I I just think that there's this sometimes inherent pressure you know you hear about these >> tech wiz uh genius teenagers who are doing all this stuff and and that's awesome like good for them. I'm so glad that they exist, but it can be a little bit intimidating, too. Um, and >> for me, because I did consider like, okay, so then should I go back to school? Should I like pursue a computer science degree? And I did really take some time to consider that. Um, but I'll be honest with you, I really don't like school that much. I I graduated high school early. I did well in school, but I literally did um two years of high school and my freshman year of college all in one year just because I was like, I want to get school out of the way. Like I I want to go out into the real world and get something done. Um so then the thought of me going back for a degree was it was just I didn't want to. That's really the long and short of it. It just didn't appeal to me. I did look into it. I looked up schools. And so then I was like, "Okay, well, if I'm not going to do that, what are my other options?" And I did >> sign up for Code Academy >> for um one year. This is before I signed up for my boot camp. And it was great. I really like their software. I think it's very intuitive with um checking to see why your code is wrong and guiding you through. So I I would recommend them personally. Um but I just found, you know, I'm also a perfectionist. I'm very type A. I'm very organized. And I know that I struggle with analysis paralysis. >> Sure. >> And I found myself like if I was getting stuck on a concept, I was not moving forward. Like I was not doing a good job of pushing past it. >> Just will get it doesn't have to be perfect. I don't have to understand every single little moving part. But because I didn't have any real deadlines or accountability, I found myself just stopping, you know, and then I'd be like, "Okay, a month later I'll pick it back up." And that was frustrating because I was like, I want to get there, but I'm not doing a very good job, >> right, >> on my own. So, >> yeah, this uh what's what's the right word for that? It's like a it's not it's not commitment. It's like a when you need that feedback loop for someone to kind of keep pushing you along. Otherwise, you have to do it. You're like, it's like a motivation commitment thing. I can't think of the word. >> Accountability. Thank you. It's just my brain's not working. But yeah, like you you need to have accountability to it. And a lot of the time I I'll share an example, right? So outside of software engineering, like I have been really into bodybuilding for a long time. And so I've been going to the gym literally as long as I've been programming. So it's kind of funny. It's like a equal length of uh my life doing that. And I found that, you know, like I know how to go work out. I understand nutrition, but I would still hire a coach because I was like, it's not necessarily they're going to tell me something so groundbreaking that I've never thought of before, but it was really an accountability thing. So, of course, there was advice and things that were helpful without a doubt. But I was literally paying like for me the value was accountability because if I get too comfortable just because it's like a it's a hobby, I can kind of blow off some steam. I'm like, am I going to, you know, go more and more years of being like, did I really make the progress I wanted to or like, could I have had some accountability to push me? And for me, it was like, if I hire a coach, that's going to be the thing that gives me that. So, for you, was it like, I need to switch gears here because the accountability is not where you want it. And so, yes, I was completing a few programs. Like I said, I'd get stuck and then I'd be like, "Okay, well then I'll I'll just get back to it and then I was pushing things off." And then I was frustrated, too, because in my mind, I was like, "Okay, well, I want to work towards making a career switch." >> And this for me, um, because I know people just all have different experiences, but it just wasn't enough. And so, I was like, "Okay, so again, do I go back to school or do I look into a boot camp?" And so I really spent about two months um doing my research. I made spreadsheets, everything from again type A. Yeah, that sounds >> Yep. Um but analyzing everything from cost, time, um and just resources. Obviously, I did a lot of research on people's reviews and and like alumni, like did they get jobs afterwards? You know, I mean that's it's great if you learn, but if you know, I want to get hired. That's my ultimate goal after finishing my boot camp is to be a software engineer. And you know, it's great to sit here and build these projects myself, but I would like to get paid for them at some point. And so, um, I ended up choosing, just to preface, the the boot camp I'm currently enrolled in is partnered with Louisiana State University, and I do live in Louisiana, but they're partnered with a company called Full Stack Academy. So they sort of I don't want to say outsource because it is under the LSU umbrella, but Full Stack sort of takes care of the boot camp aspect. They provide their own instructors, um their own curriculum, their own resources, and they are partnered with several uh universities all over the United States. So I figured I might as well just choose LSU because I live here, right? So support local, so to speak. And um I really liked it too because I wanted the not not label but reputability of having an actual university slapped on that. There are all kinds of boot camps out there and I I'm sure some of them are phenomenal, but for me I was like, you know, if I'm going to invest the time and money, I felt pro again as a recruiter too, it might look a little bit better if it had Louisiana State University on here versus XYZ, you know, who's heard of that boot camp? Again, not discrediting them, but that was part of why I chose the one that I chose. >> And so, um, >> I knew I wasn't just going to quit my job. You know, I still need to make money. So, I my boss is amazing and totally understands that I'm going through a change and is very very supportive. So, I'm still working full-time right now. Oh, I'm so blessed. I'm so thankful. And um I'm not going to be looking for a job until I do graduate. And so, I chose a six-month part-time program. And okay, >> for this that looks and it's full stack development, by the way. And um so for that, it's three evenings a week, uh three and a half hours long each lecture. And you know, I have homework, of course, outside of that, projects, and it's been a lot to manage time management wise. I I have had to get really, really good at time blocking for myself, otherwise I'll fall behind, you know. Um, it's a lot to keep up with. I have other responsibilities, too. I have other things going on in my life. But, uh, so far, I'm twothirds of the way through. I have two months left. It has been totally worth it in my opinion. I feel so good about the boot camp that I chose. I will say a couple of factors. >> First of all, Full Stack Academy does offer a one-year long career support program after you graduate and you also have access to it during >> during too. So, I've already met with three different career coaches that work for Full Stack, people who offer uh classes and they very individualistic. It's so hands-on and I feel like valued, if that makes sense. Like I'm not just some person that paid for something. Like I've had people sit down and go through my resume and talk about how to build up my LinkedIn network, how to connect with others, how to map out what kind of companies I might want to look for, um projects that I should look into putting in my portfolio. Like they've gone really into detail and this is just outside of my curriculum. So, >> right, that's really cool. And I you know I mentioned to you before we like actually started recording here together that for me the you know my journey has been different and one of the sort of side effects obviously there's bias on my end but something I've noticed when it comes to boot camps is like I think the word I I shared with you is like a lot of them feel like predatory and >> right >> I also don't think that like every boot camp is evil or something like that but the way that I kind of think about this is like if you think about as businesses right so even if they have a very good goal of helping educate when it comes to being a business and marketing what your business is. You're in a position where you're like, "Okay, if there's other people doing this, what is our advantage? Why do we stand out? What makes us different?" And some things that you can really lean into as a boot camp would be like, "Well, we can do it faster. >> We can do it cheaper. We can do like whatever it h you will be better. You'll be an expert by the time you leave." And when you end up like kind of doing this over and over like competing as boot camps, you end up having what I consider like very false promises like you know in two weeks you'll be an expert in whatever language and it's like look like it's just not true. But that doesn't mean that all boot camps are bad. It's just that there's so many that kind of feel predatory in this regard. So I'm super happy that you found something where you're like this is a good fit. you're going through it and you're like, I feel valued. Because I think that would be, in my opinion, one of the first red flags is if you get into it, you're like, okay, I paid for this. I'm getting into it. And then you're like, I don't know, like there's literally no communication support. You're kind of like, h, am I am I just one of the million people who got duped into this or something? >> Agree more, Nick. And and I'm so thankful like that I just chose the one that I chose. Um, and one thing too, I have great teachers. Uh, they did such a good job of hiring these guys. I've got two teachers and one is in charge of going through the lectures. Um, and then the other one, he's very supplementary. He's also present during the lectures, but he he takes lab time. And both of them are so good about if any of us have questions and message them and hey, I'm just stuck on this. Like, they'll hop on a call. Of course, within reason. They have other things going on, too. They are both so good at um encouraging us to collaborate with each other as classmates but then also helping us truly understand like they want us to succeed at least again the two teachers I have very much come across that way and I have a really good cohort too. It's about I will say it started off closer to 30 uh when I first started and now we're down to a little less than 20. I was kind of surprised but you know I don't know that's just people's journeys. they realize it's not for them. I'm sure that's typical, you know. Um, so now we're down to 20, but we've grown really close and I can message any of them if I have questions and we oftentimes on our off nights, >> so-called, um, we'll just join a Zoom call and hash through things together. So, I think that also has been very helpful. The curriculum has been great. Um, and the assignments have been really good, too. I think very well paced. It it is a lot of information, especially coming into it just not knowing what any of this is. For the most part, past the HTML and CSS point, I was really confident the first two weeks. I was like, "This is easy." And now I'm like, "Oh, okay." So, >> yeah, >> there's a bit more work, but it it's just been a very pleasant experience overall. >> Well, that's that's awesome. There's there's a handful of different things I kind of want to dive into and I don't know exactly which direction to go in, but you know, one of them that comes to mind is like um the fact that you're able to kind of not not even just able to, but the fact that you are kind of collaborating and communicating with the other people in in the group. So to the reason why I kind of want to touch on this is like as when I'm trying to help people get into software engineering, they're asking for advice and stuff. And I will say this on my YouTube channel all the time and things I write like yes the technical skills are like a mandatory thing. You have to invest the time into them. It's kind of a you know it's just a required thing in software engineering and lots of other technical roles too. But I think something that gets missed is that like there's this huge missed opportunity for like your software skills like truly being able to communicate collaborate. So I can imagine people going through their software engineering journey like even even for me in school like yeah we had some projects but it was kind of like until upper year when I actually had some friends in the class I was like I don't really like I don't want to talk with people like just let me go code but um you know having having experience working through problems with other people debugging code sharing thoughts I think it's so cool that you have that opportunity in your boot camp. Can you can you share some of your experience about whether you've noticed that being very helpful or do you feel like you're uh do you feel like you're always asking others for help? Are you providing help? Like what's that dynamic look like for you? >> That's a good question, Nick. Um, one thing I think has helped an organic environment of of collaboration, I think, is because uh, first of all, because I chose the part-time so-called in the evenings after work, most other people in my cohort, pretty much all of them also have other jobs. They're career switchers. Like most of them, I say older. They aren't 18. You know what I'm saying? Fresh out of high school kind of thing. It's 20s up to probably 50. And that's a guess. Um, that's an estimation. >> Someone who's offended by that now. Oh, I bet. No, >> sorry. I didn't name any names, so it's okay, right? Um, but anyh who, so it's been great because I feel like we're all in the same boat, so to speak. Most of us are coming into this without a tech background. Um, you know, I I know people who a couple of guys, you know, work in a warehouse, one has been a one woman has been a school teacher for years and she just wants to make a change. And then there's me, you know, as a recruiter. So, we are really all in this together. And I I think that from the get-go also to because it's not a huge group on a call to like versus 100 plus people like the lectures are conversational. Of course, we have to stick to the structure. You know, it is mostly just my one teacher talking through, but like if we have questions, I I think it's just, like I said, organically an environment where someone feels like they can speak up and be like, I I just don't know what we're doing right now or can you go through that again because I just totally missed that. And um you know, even during the lectures, too, because we try and follow along on our you know, on our idees as as our teacher goes through like a demo, right, to showcase a new concept. Most of us try and do that. And so, you know, pretend I'm loading something and it's not rendering on my browser correctly. Like, I'll speak up and say, "I don't know why this is." And oftentimes I'll share my screen. And normally it is one of the other students is like, "Broo, you forgot to, you know, do a closing tag here." And I'm like, "Cool." So, >> yeah, >> it's just I don't know. I think I think again just the whole sense of we're in this together, you know, not not viewing each other as competition, but rather just people who are deciding to make a change, you know, and enter this field, and we're just in it to learn. So, it it's been awesome. >> That is awesome. I love to hear that. It's uh yeah, I don't know. Like I said, I think it's kind of rare that people get some of that exposure to be able to truly collaborate. And something else that I think is kind of interesting that so for me uh I don't know I've been in industry if I include my like six internships it's been like 12 no 14 years so I've been in industry for 14 years but only until very recently with covid and everything like and everything kind of moving more remote like I've always been in person uh you know I've been a manager for 12 years now like that's been the eight years of that were in person. It's only since coming to Microsoft kind of during co that everything mostly went remote and for you kind of getting your start into this and it's all remote. Like I think this is really and I'm sorry I I'm assuming based on how you're describing it is all remote, right? >> It is. Yeah. It's all online. It's all remote. >> Yeah. So you're kind of getting into it like when it's all remote. Um and I know that there's going to be jobs still in person. There's hybrid. There's everything. Right. Um, I've noticed personally like, you know, how I work, my working style like needs to change with being remote versus in the office. I think tons of people are going through life changes where they're like, how am I supposed to work still figuring it out? So, um, yeah, I I don't know. I don't know if you have thoughts about like your remoteness in work and how that's uh either helping or hindering or I don't know if you have those thoughts yet. Um I'm a bit spoiled because even whenever I started working for this recruiting firm uh almost 11 years ago now I've been remote the whole time. Like that was >> and I love it. Like I'm not going to lie. I I am such a homebody. Oh my gosh. I I do love social interaction but I am an introvert. Like my social battery definitely needs time to recharge that you know everybody's different. So I'm fine being home. Like I'm like this is fantastic. I've got my two cats and I I can just hang out and have my own little schedule. Um, so that was also part of my decision into entering this field. And as you said, of of course there are always going to be in person or hybrid opportunities, but for me, my goal is to continue to work remote. Um, that's definitely what I'm shooting for. So I know that for some other people even some of my classmates too who are coming from a lot of them from like retail or like I said teaching and in the public sector or all these industries or warehouse working like it's new for them to right >> be home to even be you know not face to face with people. So, I think that there's less of a obstacle for for me, you know, just because I'm so acclimated to it and and it probably is a much bigger shift for some of these other people. But it's it's been great for me. Well, that so that's very helpful, valuable information to know and I guess you were kind of touching on it, but and I know it's not really you can't just uh assume things about the people that you're working with, but in the in the interactions you're having, do you find that some of those people and I don't you don't have to like say specifically obviously it's up to you to to comment on this, but do you notice that maybe some of the people that have not ever been remote based on their jobs, do you find that like >> there are challenges where they're trying to communicate different things like whether it's debugging or software or code like I don't I don't want to say they're uh struggling with it but it's more challenging. >> Um so sorry my cat's meowing in the background. >> I can only hear like a little brief meow. That's totally cool. We have we have three dogs here. I have soundproofing on like everything I possibly can. Um, but yeah, we have a giant 130 lb Alaskan malamute and two smaller fluffy dogs. So, it's a whole wolf pack here. But yeah, animals are welcome. I'm not I'm not editing this, by the way. I'm keeping that in because I want to have the cat. >> Yeah, that's that's my cat's cameo. Um, anyh who, back to your question. So, >> see her. >> Anyh who, um, welcome to YouTube. But no, so I'm sure it has been quite a transition for them. I I mean I'm trying to figure out how to best answer your question >> and you know I'm not getting it like >> yeah like Joe is really crappy at talking to people. I'm just curious if you see like do people have to try and explain things different ways or like you can kind of you can kind of tell that people are like hey this is unnatural or or based on maybe the boot camp like it just really enables them to to kind of succeed at it. >> Right. Right. So I I will say there are a couple of students who generally are a bit more hands-off like they don't often join our extracurricular calls. Not that they have to because it's just us being like hey I've got some free time. It's Monday evening. You know, I'm still working on the Pocky Bowl project. That's one we did recently. And you know, if anyone wants to hop on, let's work together. They don't, but that's okay. Can you Oh my gosh, it's playtime over here. But um so I do think it still allows people to have their own speed and be as either hands on or hands off as they want, which I think is great. like >> right >> because you can join at least in this situation like you can just attend the lectures get your homework done like submit your assignments and you know you'll pass and you'll you'll graduate and that's okay but I I will say I do think that the conversations I have had especially in those extracurricular calls have been so valuable like one thing I've really been stressing so heavily to my um my cohort has been the significance of networking and even as a recruiter I I've had a LinkedIn for years because recruiter, but I I really never spent time on sort of building a strong online presence or or personal brand until I signed up for this boot camp. And that was actually part of my whole accountability game plan that I set for myself. I was like, I'm going to join a boot camp so I that way I'll have deadlines. You know, I've spent all this money. I'm not going to waste it, right? I I'm gonna I'm gonna finish through and learn the curriculum and if I get stuck, I I've just got to figure it out. And I first thing I did too, I also ordered 200 business cards from Vistar Print with my GitHub profile name and my title as software engineer. Like I was like, we're we're planting these seeds. This is happening. And I was like, I'm going to focus on building my network, connecting with some of the top people in this space mainly mainly to honestly just try and learn as much as possible because I was coming into this as a stranger. uh no previous experience, no up until now connections with other people in this field. And I was like, I want to take advantage of of that and every every single possibility. And I'm so glad I did, Nick. Like, of course, you and I connected through LinkedIn. And uh shout out to Ryan Talbert by the way for inviting me uh to join a couple of groups and and just meet other people and be introduced to uh both other boot camp students or you know seasoned developers like yourself who who took the traditional route and it has been amazing. like I was a bit intimidated at first, you know, because again, all very new for me and I was like kind of I got to put myself out there and but it's been awesome and and I've just really been trying to encourage my classmates do the same thing. Just just send people that you want to connect with an invite. Like send them a message just saying, "Hey, listen. I'm a boot camp student. I'm entering this field. I'm just trying to build my network and and learn from others." And that really is the truth. It's just wanting to get to know people and and how your processes work. And the kind responses that I have gotten have been unbelievable. Like I'm so thankful, Nick. Truly. Like I've had people just be like, "Hey, you know, if you ever get stuck on like your boot camp homework or anything else, like I'll hop on a call with you or, you know, you can reach out to me or when you do decide to enter the job market, like let me know. I I know I've got some connections and and I'm so thankful. like it's so encouraging and exciting and it's made me feel a lot more confident about choosing this path and I don't know that I would necessarily feel that way if I hadn't also been doing all this other stuff besides my boot camp. >> Well, that's a thank you for kind of calling that out, right? I think it's uh you know I I try as much as possible when I'm sharing my experiences to be like oh I might have a particular bias here or there might be another piece of information like it's worth including. So in your case, uh, you know, we're talking about the boot camp. You're talking about your ability to be able to go network, the value of that. Like those are not necessarily the same thing. It's not like the boot camp said, "Hey, go do this. This is what we're teaching you." But you're you're kind of you're tackling different facets of being able to go get into software engineering. And I think that's really important. Um, I I had an interview with Anna Miller. Oh gosh, it's got to be a few weeks back now. And we talked about personal branding as software engineers and part of that was networking. And I loved your example that you gave because I will give you a counter example of some type of networking I don't think works well. So um and this is pretty common on LinkedIn. It's probably uh largely for me at least due to the fact that it says like I work at Microsoft right in my profile. But one of the things that happens is that >> people don't in my opinion like they don't network effectively. They will basically message me and say, "Can you refer me to Microsoft?" Like that that's the message. Can you refer me to Microsoft? And I'm not >> I'm not trying to poke fun at this like I'm almighty being at Microsoft like and I want to recognize that obviously like uh job market and stuff is very challenging right now. But the reason this isn't effective is like I mean there's many reasons but um one of them in particular is like by starting can you give me a referral like >> right >> I do not know you and that's not to say that you you you might be the most amazing person in the world but >> if I don't know you a referral attaches my name to you and it's >> it's a really uncomfortable situation to be like >> yes stranger that I've never said a word to before I will refer you right um and even if they're like, "Can you look at all my stuff and then refer me?" I'm like, "No." Because again, if I haven't worked with you, it's really difficult to do that. >> But something that Anna, like I guess I I'm very introverted. I kind of struggle with outreach, getting to meet people since doing content creation. That's been something I've been trying to get more comfortable with because truly like you know um I can reflect on times I've been in an elevator and being been like don't look at people like you don't like I don't like talking to people. um >> trying to get out of my yeah trying to get out of my comfort zone a bit and I'm like it's online it's whatever it's not so bad I can message people but >> one thing that Anna said that I really liked makes a lot of sense and I think when I reflect on times where it's been not super awkward where I have reached out to people it's that I'm not asking them for something >> right >> I'm not I'm not going hey like I'm reaching out to you because I need to use you for something right like >> yes >> because to me I I I basically talk myself out of it. I feel gross. I'm like, I don't They're going to know. They're going to know that I'm using them and I'm like, it's just bad. I don't like it. But >> if you genuinely reach out, like if someone messaged me and they said exactly what you said, hey, I'm a boot camp student. I'm just hoping to kind of learn, connect with other people in the industry. I don't know what it is about that. The fact that you're not like, I need this of you. Instantly I feel like I would be happy to help you. I don't know how but I would be happy to help. It's very thank you for connecting. But as soon as it's I need this out of you. >> I know I feel gross when I do it and I also feel gross when people do it to me. So >> just wanted to kind of share that on the networking side. >> No, that that's that's a really good insight and and really good advice too. Um yeah, don't do that. anyone watching, don't don't do it that way, you know, and and I I really did not understand how powerful >> effective networking would be until I started doing it. And like for anyone watching, if you haven't, please start. It might be uncomfortable. It might you might feel awkward. You might even feel like what business do I have? And I I have those moments too like who am I, right? Nobody as far as you know I'm a wonderful person but it's like I'm new in this field and I'm a student and I don't have you know I didn't invent the latest whatever yet but >> that's right I love that yet. >> Thank you. That's why I've got those business cards. It's it's going to happen. So, um, you know, but but just like you said, a asking to to just reach out, build your network, and truly taking on the mindset of I'm here to learn, and I'm entering this space from the outside. I would love to connect people with people who are on the inside because you guys have been there, done that, and, you know, I want to implement those same practices. And there there's no better way than to connect with people who who are in that space. And um if you don't mind, I want to go into a little story about >> Let's do it. Yeah. >> One of the coolest things uh that has come from me doing exactly that, just sending out messages, hey, I'm a student. Um so part of my networking plan, and I do think you should have a plan, was to start local. So I'm here in Louisiana, and I actually just moved here a couple of years ago. Again, I work from home, so I don't have I don't know a lot of people here outside of family, which is fine, but I was like, "Okay, well, there has to be a tech scene here." So, you know, LinkedIn has search filters. I literally just did software engineer, Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and as I kind of I don't want to say ran out of connections around here, I expanded to like New Orleans, which is about an hour away. And I would um you know, take a look at people's profiles who again worked worked in this industry and had some experience and produced content that I was interested in engaging with. And you know, I would send them those connection messages. And um I I did send his name is Rob Goday and I did send him a message. He was actually like Louisiana of the year a few years back and founder of uh Cinjun Navy ground force. Preface they have since changed their name to just ground force humanitarian aid. I I just want to put that out there for branding. But um he's the founder CEO. He's he's a coder at heart, but he um used his technology skills to develop software and basically this entire company that provides disaster relief support and Oh, >> cool. >> So, yeah, it is. And so, here's the thing. I lived in Pittsburgh for most of my life and you know, we'd have snow and ice and some weather, but I did not know what natural disasters were until I moved to Louisiana because right after I moved here, I experienced my first hurricane. Hurricane Ida >> and thankfully I was fine, my home was fine. Um, you know, everyone was safe, but like we we didn't have power for over a week and a half. It was very scary for me. And there are a lot of people who are older, compromised, um, you know, in poverty-stricken areas all over the US, but especially along the Gulf Coast. And when these disasters happen, I mean, their livelihoods and their actual lives are absolutely at stake. And the thing is also when this happens, you know, technology goes down, the internet goes down, your cell phone doesn't work. What happens if you're stranded and you need help, you need rescuing, you know, from your flooding home or fill in the blank, right? >> And um so I just came across his profile and I was so fascinated and and really inspired by what he chose to build. Like I was like, what an incredible use of software engineering, right? Like to to do something that's making this kind of impact. So, it's a very wellestablished company and people down here, they've heard of it, which again I I hadn't because I'm not from here, but then as I've talked to others, they're like, "Oh, yeah, Kinjun Navy, now known as Ground Force, but um but they've been around for years. You know, they're the tornado struck in Oklahoma. They're there. They've got a team with boots on the ground. They have all this stuff set up." Um the point is that I ended up sending Rob a connection message. Same thing, just saying, "I'm a boot camp student. I'm also new to Baton Rouge. I'm just trying to connect with other professionals in this field. And he messages me back and asks me all about my boot camp experience. You know, what's it like? Uh what got you into tech? And then he asked me if I want to meet for coffee. And I was like, >> "Yeah, I I would love to meet for coffee. That would be amazing." >> And so I um ended up I'm again typing. I'm such a nerd, Nick. But I typed out a list of questions on a word document. I printed it out because again I was like I had this opportunity to sit down and have this man's undivided attention and I think that that's very valuable. Like I had questions about like how did he get started in tech? Like what have been how hard has it been to keep up with how rapidly this field is changing? Like those were some of the questions I had because I really wanted answers because that's stuff I'm going to be facing um as I continue forward in this field. So, I was like, maybe he'll give me some knowledge. And he was so kind. So, we met up at a local coffee shop and he had his laptop with him and he just showed me everything. Like, he's showing me his database. He's showing me all of his code and and just walking through some other ideas that he's got for advancing this software, you know, to make it more accessible to people and just improve it. And um I will say at this point I'm I'm relatively proficient and on the front end side I'm still working through learning back end and of course the learning will never stop by the way but um >> as far as like my skill sets right and so he's showing me the front end of stuff and I was just so excited about this project mainly just because I thought it was fascinating and um I was really moved just again by by his mission uh and what he's focused on. I thought was so important. I was just like so starruck to be honest. Like I get to sit here and and talk to this guy and he's just showing me everything. And then he was like, "Well, um, you know, do do you want to be like involved with this? Like maybe you could do some front-end work on a new app that we're doing, you know, and it could be like some good training for you." And he's like, "It would be a no pressure. Like I'm I'm not hired as an employee." Just to preface. It's stuff I do on the weekend, but I get to be a part of this project. >> Awesome. and take on however much or little as as I want. And he's invited me to the standups every week. So, I take some time um a couple times a week in the morning and I also on the weekends am able to he's got some of the smartest developers on his team. I'm so lucky that I get to sit and pair a program with these guys and they're taking the time to just answer questions for me and like, you know, I don't I don't feel like an inconvenience and and they're so patient and they're so kind and um all of that has come out just from me sending one LinkedIn message in the conversation from that. So, this is excellent experience for me on top of my boot camp. And I feel like it's really helping prepare me to be better equipped to actually entering the the workforce because there's stuff that you just don't face in a boot camp that's just not real life. So, yeah. >> And that's fair. Like that's going to be the case like no matter kind of what what type of training and education you go through, right? Like it will it's not going to be exactly the real world all the time, but you know, lots of lessons and stuff that are still valuable. But the I wanted to add like recently I had someone on LinkedIn message me and they were like, "Hey, I'm going to be in the area." Like they were like not from here, but they said, "I'm going to be near Seattle. Like, would you want to meet up on whatever day?" Like we go out. It was like basically like a coffee meet up. And I was like, it was a Friday for me. I was like, "Sure, like I can go do that." And >> you know, they again when they reached out, they didn't say, "Hey, I need this of you." they they were basically saying like it would you know I'm interested I'm kind of learning I'm trying to just get more you know exposure to things going on in the industry and then they didn't start by saying like I would like your time but it came up and they said like I'm going to be in the area would you like to do that so >> I was totally cool with that that's fine I've had people reach out and um again not asking something of me like I need this from you but they've volunteered they said hey I'm learning do you have something that I could contribute to. They said, "I don't want to be paid. I don't care what it is. I just I want to start having something that I could add value to." And unfortunately for me, I don't have any projects like that right now. But I thought like that that's another option where you can say hey look like and I don't mean to say that your time is not worth money like you shouldn't be compensated but truly if you're just like I want to I want to try doing stuff like just getting connected that way can be super valuable. And the last thing I'll say on on LinkedIn is my first full-time job. So I worked at a digital forensics company. So, when you talk about missiondriven stuff, like I totally hear you on on why that feels so good to be able to support that. My first full-time job outside of university was from a Google like a Gmail spam message. I happened to be looking in my spam folder. I saw a LinkedIn message that was automatically flagged as spam. >> I clicked on it and I was like, "Wait, a human wrote this. It's not like a, you know, a copy paste like send it to a million people." And I read it and it was from the founder of this forensic company. And actually I found out later it was from their first employee. He he got him to send it from his account. But the point is that one message on LinkedIn from someone just reaching out. And I know that I'm changing the dynamics here a little bit. But the the power of one message was eight years of my career. That company went public. I missed that part. They got bought back to private for $2 billion. I missed that part too. But the point is I got to be part of that journey and have all this impact along the way from one message. So it makes a huge difference. >> That's such a great story too. And I I will say like it sounds so cliche but just the ability to access people who are decision makers, you know, who are who are innovators and movers and shakers in this industry like is unprecedented. like when before have or even like you you know you and me talking I'm a boot camp student you know you're a principal software engineer at Microsoft and that's awesome but here we are having this conversation and um I'm so thankful for it so I I just so strongly encourage people to take advantage of that and like you said to do it in the right way you know have have the right spirit be a nice person like the internet is complicated and not always very friendly but um but it is a powerful tool and magical things can happen when people do reach out and come together and th that story is such an excellent example of that. >> Yeah. I I mean like you know we've been talking about this for a little bit but I I think it's worth underscoring truly the value of networking because again there's so much focus on what technical skills, what's the right programming language? What's the right tech stack? I want to make sure I can get employed. But it's like it's truly a missed opportunity. And Brooke, you said it earlier for a lot of people. Yeah. like it's going to feel awkward. >> Mhm. >> I can say that confidently, you know, in my issues, I would feel super awkward to do it. But the worst, literally the worst thing that could happen is someone might say like, "Why are you messaging me?" And then you go, >> I don't like or whatever. And more likely is they just ignore you. That's >> right. >> The most likely worst case scenario is >> they just ignore you and then so what, right? Like you might go, "Oh, that felt kind of bad." But like, okay, there's a hundred other people that are equally as awesome that you could reach out to and um, you know, having having one, like we just said, having one interaction could, you know, kind of change the course of things for you. So, it's worth doing. >> Absolutely. And I will say too, one one advantage I do think I've had in my extensive career as a recruiter is time because I've I've worked with seuite professionals in some of the biggest manufacturing companies in the United States. So I will say my people skills have been sharpened by that. You know I I'm able to communicate with people at all levels and speak to engineers about technical things. It took me some time to learn but I got there. And one thing I will say too especially when it comes to hiring like if let's say there are three candidates that are very similar on a technical level right they're all speaking from my background they're all electrical engineers you know they all have about 10 to 12 years of experience. they're all in the same price range, right? If it's apples to apples, so to speak, the hiring manager, the hiring authority, whoever's in charge is going to pick the person that they connected the best with time and time again. And even sometimes, um, and I'm not saying the like, again, it's all relative because we don't present candidates unless they're qualified. So even if there's a range, it's not like any of them are just garbage versus, you know, um but even so, like sometimes there's been a candidate that on a technical level I thought might make a little bit more sense for the job, but they interviewed, you know, John Deere over here and they had a great conversation, you know, and and they appreciated John's sense of initiative and and the way he came across as just being very confident and competent and and very friendly. You know, people want to work with likable people. Even if you have the technical skills and the acumen and one thing too, um, teamwork is such a big part of this industry. You are going to be working with people on a team. You have to know how to communicate and know how to do it effectively, you know. And I think too, if you're managing a team, you have to know how to make sure you're giving constructive criticism and feedback versus just being like, "Hey, this sucks." that's not the way to do it. Um, so those soft skills as you mentioned really are just as important. You have to have both. And so that is definitely something that should not be neglected if you're especially if you are trying to break into this field. That is so important. >> Well, thank you for saying all of that because usually I end up going off on like a rant and I'm like, look, I know the, you know, technical skills are important, but listen up. Like hear it from me. But I didn't have to say it, which is great. Um I you kind of said all of it. I think it's I think it's just so important. But >> one of like >> one of the things that you're getting to realize in your current experience is like you're getting to see some of that whether that's from the boot camp where you're interacting with other people and getting to see like, hey, we're problem solving together. If you like assume that that's also going to happen at work, you can see the value of that. And now that you're also volunteering your time to help with this other initiative, you're in this position where you're seeing others pair with you to go solve through like solve problems. And you're not always going to be necessarily paired up and coding together, but you are basically guaranteed that you're going to be having to work with other software engineers communicating things. There's going to be other stakeholders you have to work with. So >> I just think that like yeah it's really cool that you've been able to see like this is going to be helpful and the one other part I wanted to mention about this that um we kind of you know this is from earlier in the conversation we talked about this you know from maybe other people's standards or whatever maybe this is a little bit later in someone's career journey to switch over but it's like it's very doable um I was talking Brian Jenny I think it was uh got to be a couple months back Now on the other podcast I have he was telling us like a huge career change like a huge life change for him and he's like kind of saw code and was like I'm doing this and it's never too late. >> It's never too late. And often what's super cool about this is you have all of these other skills that you have built up like being able to communicate which is critical and you can go apply those into software engineering. So I think as long as you have a foundation of your problem solving and an interest in that having these other skills can be such a huge improvement and benefit as a software engineer. So it's like it's not like it's too late and actually you might have some ridiculously good advantages over some other people because of your other experiences. So >> sure I I I completely agree. Um like you said I I don't feel well first of all I really have enjoyed my career as a recruiter. I'm not downplaying that at all, like I said, but I I just feel like I've found what has actually just been a very real passion for me with software development, and I'm so glad that that happened. Uh, so none of it has been time wasted. And I I along lines of what you're saying, I realized that I did have some soft advantages with because of the people skills that I've had to develop and ability to >> um com converse with people at all levels and and reach out and the importance of building a reputation, too. So, it's it's led to some really amazing conversations. >> That's super cool. Um maybe for for wrapping things up if you had to give someone the like what's your best advice for someone they're saying I'm thinking about starting off on my software engineering journey and sorry I am putting you on the spot um so I'll I'll keep rambling a little bit to kind of preface the question you can start thinking about it because that's not really fair of me but your best advice to someone who's like I want to get into software engineering I don't really know where to start they might be saying things like uh should I be going to school like whether that's college, university, should I do a boot camp, should I just forget that stuff and go like, you know, total self taught path. >> What are your thoughts on like what would be your advice that you could give someone now from your experience so far? >> Right. Um, so that's an excellent question. I will say this kind of a multiaceted answer, but there are so many ways to enter this field and be successful. I I I do think that there is value in getting a computer science degree. I chose the boot camp route, but I honestly do think that, you know, a a degree has merit. It's not the route that I went. And I also have personally met and engaged with some unbelievably successful uh self-taught developers too. you don't have to have, you know, and of course I will say too on an international level in some parts of the world um a degree really is a lot more make or break versus like here in the United States. So that's that's relative. I mainly sort of address the United States audience and how the culture shifted too. And also I do think this field has become a lot more welcoming to self-taught and boot camp students. I really do because I think people especially hiring managers who understand that you either do know how to have these technical skills or or you don't. I mean there really is no in between. Either you can code out in this language or solve this problem or you can't you know and that's part of of course the technical interview process which is great. So I would say you know pick a language and stick with it. Learn the fundamentals uh whatever that looks like for you. There's so many resources online. I also want to shout out Free Code Camp. Love Quincy Larson. He's like my personal hero. I love that he's trying to make um access to learning software development equitable for everybody. Like, oh, he's amazing. But um that's an excellent resource. There are so many YouTube tutorials out there. You don't have to pay for a boot camp. You don't have to go to school, but if you do, power to you. I think that there's benefit of it. Um but stay consistent. Like I said, learn the fundamentals. Don't overload yourself. That was something I was overwhelmed with when I was >> on my own pace is like there's so much out there. I didn't know outside of HTML and CSS. I knew that was where I was like, okay, start there and that's great. But after that, I was like, okay, now Python, JavaScript, Java, see what what do I do? Pick one. >> Just pick one. Seriously. Um, people do, especially to the whole LinkedIn tech community, which I genuinely love, but I love when people actually just get into what language is better. turn them like us. Okay. >> I posted about that the other day. I made a I tried to make a joke and I because I've seen other people do it. >> Be careful. >> Yeah. And I was like, haha. Yeah. Like you know there is no difference or like there is no better language except if you know C is better because you know my audience is primarily C# developers. But it's true like there there is no best universal language. And to add into what you said from earlier, you had said that you are the type of person that will get analysis paralysis. So what's better to sit there for days, weeks, months and go, I don't know which language to pick because I can't pick the best one or do you just start start learning it, start trying things, start building some experiences, and you either go, "Hey, this is pretty cool." Or, "Hey, this sucks." Or now I'm curious about something else. It's like you you at least were doing something >> right. And along the lines of that point too, I know we're wrapping up, but like I had this conversation again with Rob yesterday during a standup and you know, I'm tackling some bits of front-end stuff on this app that we're building and I still find myself afraid to touch the code because again, the the developers on this team are all very seasoned. Some of them have worked in big tech, you know, um and just they know what they're doing is basically what I'm saying. And here I am. Hey guys, I'm happy to be here and I really am, but I've also just been terrified. And I I literally made a post about this, but I said, "Oh, you know, I'll probably break everything." And I was kind of joking because we all get along great. But both Rob and Joe, one of the other developers, was like, "Just break it. Just do it. Like, just get in there, mess around. Like, it there's nothing that you're going to do that we can't fix." Which I'm like, and that was so motivating to me and just made me feel so much better because I am learning. It's okay. I I don't know everything at this point. Not that anybody does, you know, but I'm still expanding my own skill set, but that is really good advice. Like especially for someone with my personality and if it's not perfect, I want to I want to throw it away. It's like it's okay if it's messy and ugly and a little sloppy at first. You you got to get better over time, but get in there and build something. Just make it render on the browser and you'll figure it out. But you got to get your hands dirty along the way. And that took me a little bit of a mindset shift to get into, but I am getting there. And but that is very valuable advice, especially for someone like me. >> That's super cool. It sounds like they've definitely given you like what I would call like a safe place to fail, which I think is critical for >> for learning, for growth, um, innovation in general. So that's >> that's super cool. But so Brooke, you're you're on LinkedIn. Is that the best place for people to reach out to you? Like is LinkedIn do you have anything else? your GitHub. Uh do you want to shout out any place where people can get in touch with you? >> Yeah, if you want to check out my GitHub, um my username is Sweet Rarb and my uh LinkedIn is Brook Sweet. I'm not really very active on other socials. Uh I really have not been a big social media person until I started being like, "All right, we're going to build a brand on LinkedIn." So, yeah, absolutely. Um you're welcome to connect with me there. I also will say since growing I'm now getting messages of people talking about their stories whether they're boot camp students or wanting to break into tech. I really love those conversations. So send me those messages. I would love to connect with people honestly because it was transformative for me and you're not alone. There are so many resources and I I do think that it is important in tech to stick together, build a community and support each other especially in this difficult market. Like these relationships matter and I really do believe that you know when we help others we collectively rise up together that I'm a huge believer in that as well. >> I fully agree. So I'll I'll make sure to get links from you. I know your LinkedIn, your GitHub. I'll I'll double check with you and I'll put that in the comments and the description of this video. Um, and you're sure you don't want to shout out your your uh YouTube gaming channel from before. Is that >> Do not look up my YouTube channel. Thank you so much. We I got to go. >> Okay. Okay. We'll we'll park that one for now. But when you decide to finally revive it, let me know. >> Okay. >> No, cool. This is really good. Thank you so much for sharing. And for folks watching, yeah, please reach out to Brooke. Uh you can leave comments below and stuff if you're going through boot camps and you have interesting experiences. Uh I was telling Brooke like I really wanted to hear about her experiences with boot camps because I don't get that much exposure and it's kind of one-sided for me. So Brooke, thank you so much once again.