Unlock Your Engineering Confidence - Interview With Maria Glazunova

Another, by the way, about the pauses. Everybody is so uncomfortable with pauses. >> There's one critical software engineering skill that I continue to see people ignore. And no, it's not going to change no matter how many lead code problems you go solve. Hi, my name is Nick Cantino and I'm a principal software engineering manager at Microsoft. In this video, I was joined by Maria Glazenova to talk about communication. And I think communication is one of the most important skills that you can learn as a software engineer. And I've told all of you this a million times, right? I've made plenty of videos about this topic because I think it is so important. Now, Maria is a coach for software engineers to be able to improve their communication skills. And I thought this conversation was awesome because we got to talk about not only communication, but language as well. And this really resonated for me because I've worked with people on my own teams where English is not their first language. And we've talked about different ways that we can work through communication. I think that there is so much value that you're going to be able to extract from this conversation. And so I want you to sit back and enjoy. Let me know if you want to see more videos like this in the future in the comments. Thanks and I'll see you next time. >> Mostly I would say on my own and like solopreneur entrepreneurship I don't know you can call it different ways. >> Awesome. Yeah, >> I also work for some ger for a German company and I have uh some clients from that direction but just a few and you know it's always like I'm kind of reducing the amount of clients from that side and I'm of course uh increasing my own clients already like with tech professionals because that's what I'm passionate about you know I really love working with tech professionals. Yeah, >> that's cool. I mean, that's really impressive. And I think it's uh I don't know. I think a dream for a lot of people to be able to say like I want to find something I'm passionate about and turn it into something that I do like on my own, right? I'm not doing that for someone. There's nothing wrong with that, but when you can do it on your own, that's really cool. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'm really glad that um yeah, I'm I'm doing that, I would say, because I have always dreamed of that. And honestly, communication skills. So maybe I can just tell about myself. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's that's where I'm going. Yep. >> Right. Right. So um I specialize in empowering tech professionals to skyrocket their careers to build the confidence to have this executive presence when they come tell me oh I need to have this executive presence. Okay guys, you got it. >> Yeah. So I'm helping with this and um uh I can say that I have been always really passionate about communication >> actually as the core because um >> I would say this is my active position active way of practicing peace because uh through communication people can really find some common ground with each other some understanding it reduces aggression and when I I'm able able to help with that, you know, through my clients, you know, and of course they go to their, I don't know, companies and so on. And then they come back and they say, "Oh, finally I was able to resolve that conflict, that issue. I was able to speak up. Oh my god, I feel like I don't know, so good." So this ma makes my heart sing, you know? >> Right. >> That's super cool. Um, I know one of the things I say a lot and maybe people that are watching or listening to this probably get sick of it, but I think that it's not said enough and it's exactly what you said, just like the value of communication. Um, especially when it comes to a field like software engineering. So many people are like, you know, I I need to get my coding skills up. I need to learn all these different technologies. And yes, like you're going to be using those things at work. And yes, that's necessary for an interview. But >> so many people seem to neglect the concept that your communi pardon me, your communication skills are going to be like absolutely critical when it comes to working. You're going to be working in teams with other stakeholders like so you know all about this obviously. Um so that's yeah that's awesome. >> Yeah. I actually uh had a client and he told me you know Mary um you know why I decided to become a programmer because I thought it would be just me and my computer and nobody else. I'm so introverted and everything you know so I really love coding just leave me with computer and I'll be like perfect. Right. >> Then as he progressed through the ranks and he became I think an engineer manager already uh yeah it's like okay guys now it's 99% all about communication with people and dealing with people and managing people and it's complete opposite you know what I actually had in mind you know >> right even like you know stereotypical like software engineers programmers it's like it's generally like uh generally like a man like in a dark room like with computers everywhere and it's like all alone like you just totally uh unable to interact socially like I'm obviously exaggerating the the stereotype but like it's just not the reality like you're interacting with so many people like you you cannot do your job effectively I would say for like 99% of roles unless you're working with other people >> that is true that is true and even juniors right now what I see because the tech industry it's moving so fast and you need to keep up and you really need to I would say like to rise through the ranks and the more you want to do that the more you're like getting some higher positions of course the more effective communication skills it requires that's what I just see you know when I'm working right now with tech professionals more and more so yeah >> that's awesome and I guess a a question for you do you find that like for the clients that you have coming to you they obviously come to you because they want to improve in their communication. Are they finding like it's almost like a an oh crap moment for them where they're like I'm in this situation and now I need to catch up on my communication or >> do you find that some of them are like more proactive about it where they're like I see what's happening and I want to get ahead of it. >> Right. I would say right now I'm getting more and more clients who are proactive. >> Oh my personality. you know I'm really proactive person and I'm like already you know like going and you know I don't understand something I'm just like going and learning and you know this is also I think you know attracting some similar people or something in a way so yeah they are more of proactive and um honestly they already have pretty good level usually so I work like software engineers senior software engineers and tech leads I would say this is my main scope in a way and um yeah and they're like creating some content for LinkedIn for example and yeah and they just want to get better you know at at that at better at communication managing teams and so on and yeah so I would say the second yeah being more proactive >> that's cool and I I feel like probably the people that are being proactive about it are more motivated to to make change because they're like I observe that I want this and therefore I invest the time and effort. Whereas maybe people doing it retroactively feel like almost like I don't want to say guilted isn't the right word, but they're like, "I'm falling behind. Everything's like it's not good. Like I need to catch up." >> And it probably is worse framing, but >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I definitely understand what you're saying. And they're like suffering more in a way, you know, because they're pushing themselves more because I worked of course with uh such people. Definitely. Yes. And uh in a lot of cases actually they come and sometimes they say you know what I have been doing everything um I try to and they kind of put the emphasis on the language not the communication skills but the language just the language >> you know um and like oh I have been doing everything I have been watching films friends I installed all the applications like Dualingo or something you know what guys this is not really helpful to be honest you know if You need some if you if you have some very specific goal you need to you need to have some very specific training for that. Right. >> Right. It's like I don't know you're like a runner and uh you decide I don't know like a casual runner and at some point you decide you know what actually I want to become ready for the Olympics you know and and you just like run every day just as you have been running all this time and nothing happens you know you're not really preparing yourself right you're not really training because it's about nutrition it's about like specific muscles you know like it's a really really specific training if you really want to get ready to the Olympics right so That's what I'm telling also to my clients. Guys, you need specific, very specific training. >> Right now, you you said something interesting and uh might be worth kind of explaining a little bit more. So, obviously we're talking about communication in general and how that applies for software engineers in their careers. Um, and you just mentioned language as well. So, maybe you can elaborate a little bit more. Like I'm assuming that a lot of the people that you're and I'm this is a total assumption. I'm assuming that most of these people might be like English as a second language and they're they want to like they want to be better at English and maybe they're attributing too much of their challenges just to not being comfortable with English. But can you maybe elaborate on on some of those parts? >> Absolutely. And you are so right. Uh yeah, I work with non-natives, right? Like English is the second language. That is true. From different countries like I don't know Brazil, Philippines, Japan, Czech Republic. So like all over the world and uh what I notice uh that a lot of them actually care and worry about uh completely wrong things in a way >> okay >> you know for example their accent >> right >> I don't know have you come across you know such people who like oh my god I want to sound native whatever that means >> so I have so I have not noticed people being worried about that. >> But I think probably one of the things you're going to talk about is like people's confidence with it and the only thing that I end up observing is like their English is pretty great. Like I can totally understand it and all that I hear is the accent and I'm like it's cool you have an accent but it's not like a I have never heard an accent and I was like oh like that's weird like like a bad thing. Like accents are always just interesting, unique, and it's never been a problem like to any degree. Like to hear one, I'm It's never been What is that? Yeah, >> I know what you mean. I know. And um I actually I lived in Canada and um of course I was exposed to a lot of conversations and also my sister, she works in tech industry, so I was of course communicating with her guys at work and so on. Honestly, nobody ever told me, you know, that, oh, something is wrong with your accent. You got to work on that, >> right? Yeah. >> I do have an accent, you know. Of course, everybody does, you know, honestly. >> Well, and so this is a this is a great point though. I'm I'm from Canada and I live in just north of Seattle now. And you and you might have picked up on this, but if I have said the word about, people immediately go, "Oh, you're from Canada. You said aboot." And I said like, "No, I didn't say a boot. I said about." And they said, "Yeah, it's the same thing." And I'm like, "It's not, but you know, I speak English and I have an accent from Canada and people pick up on it." So, it's Yeah, everyone has accents. It's totally true. >> Yeah. Exactly. And um Yeah. And sometimes people just worry too much. Maybe they somehow maybe there is some kind of bias. I I discussed this with um um one Lucas Arton and he mentioned that you know what American accent can be just seen more credible. So when there is a >> sure >> you know when there is a meeting and there are different people from different countries and when the person sounds maybe not from America but he or she sounds American they okay he has a point or something you know >> interesting >> might be you know this bias and that's why because I was like what's happening why people everyone honestly everyone talk coming to me and they like oh you know there is something wrong with my accent honestly everyone That's a really interesting point and I think like as you're saying you're not making the statement that oh being like having an American accent therefore makes you more credible but if people if you have so many people coming to you with that observation like I want to sound more American so that I can sound more credible. It does suggest that those people literally view that accent as more credible. So that's I've never thought about that. That's very interesting. >> Subconsciously because they don't, >> you know, like ah they even tell me like I want to sound like native and this is like oh my gosh this is like a mystery for me native. What does that mean? Like King Charles, like Tom Hanks, like who you know you actually want to sound like you, right? >> Um I don't know. I love accents and uh I think they definitely makes us you know unique and really special. What is I would say important is that uh intelligibility you know how understandable you are because if the accent becomes an obstacle meaning some pronunciation moments and that's what I'm working with guys as well as the part of uh I don't know my program that I offer >> that there are certain sounds and certain moments in pronunciation uh that interfere you know that become like an obstacle like from guys from Brazil or like from different countries I would say. Yeah. So we we're working on that. So I'm not like a redux like reducing their accent or anything like that. Yeah. But just >> they are clear. >> Mhm. >> That makes sense, right? It's like it's not that the accent like having an accent is the problem, but when it comes to like pronouncing different words and things like that, the different sounds that we need to be able to create. If your accent is such that it might interfere and not not with every word, but like there's different sounds that we go to make, then yeah, maybe if you want to enunciate them more clearly, you work around some of those things. But again, to your point, that's not like, oh, eliminate your accent. That's just make your accent work with these sounds you want to create. um a very sort of inverse example of this as an English speaker. There is uh a Chinese person on my team and >> his name I'm not even going to try to say it. It's very simple written down. It's yu and then x i e. sorry for saying his name, you know, on in the public, but I don't think he would be upset by this. But his name is just looks like you, but the way that you say the U part, >> it's almost like uh like an uh sound. >> And a lot he's told people like, well, you're not making like that's not the right sound. So, he just says, "Call me XY." >> So, his nickname is XY, >> right? And it's because like we're un a lot of us are unable to sort of make this sound as English speakers. >> So, you know, it works the other way too. It's not just like English speakers have, you know, all the sounds we can make. But >> of course, of course, because it's like an international language and uh yeah, it's like everybody I would say like in like in the business world for example, you know, we speak this language. It kind of unites us in different ways, right? So of course yeah but once again this standard really interferes you know and really affects also the confidence of people because they try really hard like for example I um had a client from um no she's from Iran but now she's in Australia and uh she told me when I came to Australia I mean I was speaking fine but because of the environment because of my pressure on myself, you know, my own pressure on myself that I need to catch up to some kind of invisible standard in the accent and everything. So, yeah, it was like it put a lot of pressure and of course um yeah, she was making like lots of mistakes, she was like really stressed and everything. And then when she had a good conversation also uh with her manager and we also worked with her. So she started to release this you know like anxiety and yeah of course she was able to you know to express herself better and just know more freely and yeah and so on. There's another >> Yeah, sorry. There's >> Oh, no. No, that's that's super interesting. And you mentioned the confidence part, too. And I have pulled up on another screen here. I have your rocket framework, and I figured that might be kind of cool to start going through that because I know that one of the pieces, not right at the start, but towards the beginning/middle is is confidence. So, if you're comfortable with it, do you want to kind of walk us through your rocket framework? because the confidence part in particular I I want to kind of chat through some different things that I've I've observed in my own career. So >> cool. >> Yeah. I mean um yeah so rocket uh approach that's what I'm using um inside I would say uh my customized program and uh I can just like walk through every letter from what it stands for. So the first one is R and it's about refining business vocabulary because a lot of my clients uh they work for for example Canadian or American companies and of course um uh people at work they're using some vocabulary you know some special slang and phrases and especially in America and Canada like a lot. So when you come and you start working there of course uh oh my god what to do I don't know all this I don't understand so kind of to become really comfortable with this language you know with this vocabulary and of course uh adopt it yourself so you can express yourself easily you don't you know like overink and like thinking too much about you know like translating sometimes in your head or something right this is >> another thing So it becomes more u I would say effective and also how to um use what you already have because I had you know such situations when uh I had uh like really low level of English and she was able to express herself brilliantly you know just to the point effective >> but great and advanced level when she just couldn't you know she was so perfectionistic about she just couldn't I would say say a for it right so it's also about like the mindset I would say uh I would say that language is 99% psychology seriously that's what I >> okay >> so far you know seriously >> yes um yeah so we kind of work on that on the vocabulary that it's relevant and everything's very specific and you know people just you know go and use it and practice it and you know we kind of learn all the strategies so this is the first one R >> the next >> on the R one though I wanted to say we have this like I want to call it a problem at Microsoft and we joke that it's like an acronym company with a soft or no a software company with an acronym problem or the other way around but um the point is that we have so many acronyms that when new people come on board and they could be like I am English as a first language and when I joined Microsoft it was like I I don't know what all these acronyms are you join meetings and everyone's talking about three or fourletter acronyms and you're like what? Like what are you even talking about? Right? You can hear about the interactions between these things but you're like is that a team? Is that a product? Is that a piece of technology? Is that a protocol? Like what are we talking about? And I've kind of like taken tried to take some better responsibility that when new people join the teams that when I'm like in a meeting, let's say, and someone's talking, I will hear acronyms and try to type it out in the chat to people and say, "Hey, by the way, like this word or this acronym you're hearing means this." Because people didn't do that for me. And you it just takes so much longer to learn what these things are. So, um I wanted to kind of share that like especially on the business vocabulary acronyms can be really uh challenging to work with even even language barriers aside. So, I can only imagine for someone whose first language is not English, they're hearing acronyms and it's like one more extra level of translation, right? It's it's definitely challenging. >> And you're so kind that you provided, you know, the meanings. >> I'm trying. I'm trying. I'm not I'm not perfect at it, but >> but still I mean I think it it means a lot to people because really like when they Yeah. So they understand like immediately and of course >> I know the feeling of sitting there in the meeting and being like you've lost me completely now. I don't know what these words are like >> or you know like you know very very okay what what did you say you know >> yeah can is that something I can even search and a lot of the times it's internal right like it's like a Microsoft specific thing so it's >> yeah it's definitely challenging >> yeah yeah yeah because there are like if you just Google some word it can give you so many definitions hello English >> right >> oh my god just one word it's all Yeah. Yeah. It just weird sometimes, but you know, it is what it is, right? >> That's right. Yes. Yes. All right. Right. So the next one it's about oh organizing ideas clearly and concisely because um what I notice and guys also tell me oh you know what I struggle with structuring the idea without overexlaining when I you know I miss some word or I just say something and I want to make sure that people understand me and I start all this I don't know passage and people just lose me you know and yeah so this is a big thing I would say for clarity you know that you're very concise >> interesting there's um I don't know if this is exactly related we were talking about this at work the other day because I was I was talking again with uh the individual I mentioned who's who's Chinese and another person on the team who's also from China and they were talking about situations where um they're trying to say things in English or whatever and and actually this wasn't their experience they were talking about friends experiences where they get very um nervous concerned that they're using like say the wrong tense of words. So instead of saying like I uh I am going to the store they would say like I went to the store and you know in in conversations if someone's talking to me if they're giving me enough context I might go oh they just they just said the wrong tense but I know that they're trying to go to the store like no big deal. And I think some of these people um are like over I don't know over hyperfocused on these on these things and trying to get them perfect. >> And then I think that probably makes it more challenging for them. So to your point about organizing the ideas, it's like >> if you have the general idea like you're you're good like it's okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. This is this is so good what you mentioned because uh I actually have even right now a client and he's one of the main challenges uh overthinking because >> he wants also to sound polite. So he kind of gives all this beautiful polite words you know and also yes and like overthinking about the grammar and how to and this is actually uh something that I will mention also a little bit later but this interferes with listening a lot because when you are in your own head you're constructing and structuring all of that >> you're actually missing an important information another person tells communication doesn't happen. >> Yeah. And this is so cool to talk through just because it's like it is such a a core thing about what we're doing at work, right? And I'm hoping that there are people that are going to be watching and listening to this going like, you know, if English is not their first language, they're kind of they're it's resonating, right? Where they're like, I I do that. Yeah. Like I need to try and get better at that. Yeah. This is cool. But C is the next letter, and this is the one I'm super excited about. So tell us about confidence when it comes to all of this stuff. >> Yes. Convey with confidence, right? When you're conveying your um whatever message you have. Oh, I have actually a lot to say about that, you know. Where to start? So you are interested in the confidence, how to build confidence, right? >> That's Yeah. And I think that in my opinion building like you need to be able to you can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I feel like you need to build confidence in yourself to be able to do a better job like conveying your message with confidence. But would you say that those things are the same or do you see them as maybe different things? >> Honestly, confidence is 99% psychological thing. It has nothing to do with the language to be honest, you know. >> Right. Okay. >> I mean to some extent of course. Yes. And it's very very interesting uh because I'm more into the coaching. So I work with some mindset and psychology too. And uh I had a client and when she came she was obsessed with pronunciation like obsessed like really. And her pronunciation was okay. I mean she was from Brazil. I mean there were some moments but it wasn't like something that would interfere that much. >> She was she was great. She was brilliant I would say and I was like curious why she obsessed so much and sometimes she wouldn't feel so confident and we had a conversation and I just asked you know and why do you feel like that you know why do you feel that you lack this confidence and why are you so obsessed about pronunciation in the first place and she actually mentioned and I'm sharing this by the way with her permission because I have already written a post about it and she was like yeah totally because you know maybe somebody can benefit from that you know >> right that's great yeah >> and she mentioned that you know what when I was young and I had a job and there was this uh person who mocked her pronunciation she was really good you know she was like really like into languages Portuguese English German and like she was really proactive she was really really great so it was coming more from probably I'm not to dare to judge but still probably from some kind of not good place let's say and she mocked her and she was a high he was a higher position I think her manager yeah and um it affected her confidence of course a lot and it connected okay so yeah my pronunciation is like bad and I cannot communicate well you know so she kind of created this connections you know >> right in her head and um yeah so and that's why she started to work like really too hard and you know and she she still told me that you know it's sometimes yeah I can hear his voice you know and his words still affects me and when we were as we were talking and you know okay you bring once again awareness to the situation right now we are talking how are you feeling right now talking about all of this how do you feel about like I don't know your pronunciation she's like you know what I feel really confident. I'm like, split of the second. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's that's incredible. Um the I mean, it's kind of it sucks to hear that someone had like a bad experience where, you know, someone that they maybe they look up to this person. And I don't know what the relationship was like, but at least someone that they they're in a position of power, let's say, has made someone and it could be a small comment, but it's like you got to be careful with how you talk to people because that can have such a longlasting impact on on how people feel. So, I just wanted to say that really sucks to hear. Um, so, you know, feel bad for that person. But, um, yeah, like the the hyperfocus on pronunciation in terms of res trying to restore that confidence, right? like >> they're so brought down by it. >> Um, now would you say that a lot of your clients are coming to you like primarily because confidence? Like is that one of the biggest drivers or are they are they're like I'm confident but I just know like I need to improve some skills like I'm assuming it's not really the second part. >> Everybody 100% comes with the first one. They are looking for confidence first of all. This is the first >> right >> now this is very interesting you know because what I mentioned uh with this particular person it was an external person who said something right and it affected you right >> but in a lot of cases I think you also mentioned it during the live about negative selft talk because we do it ourselves >> yep and I'm I'm not good at fixing that yet but I'm I'm every time I said it to my wife this morning the context was she was talking about sewing pants and I said, "I have tried before and I'm terrible at it." And I was walking away as I said it and I turned around and I said, "No, I'm not terrible at sewing pants." I said, "I tried to sew pants once or twice. I didn't enjoy it. It was challenging." And I jokingly said, "But maybe one day I could be good at sewing pants, but sounds ridiculous, but I just wanted to say it out loud." So, I was like, "No more negative selft talk. Like, you have to stop doing this. same. Yeah. >> And sometimes I'm doing something like, "Oh, I cannot do this yet." >> Yeah. Exactly. Right. It's it's there's nothing like no one is expected to be able to take on a new skill and be like perfect at it right away. So, sure. >> Currently, you cannot do it. But with time and practice, absolutely right. >> Exactly. Exactly. And also another thing, imposter syndrome that affects all of us. And this is something that Yeah. just amazing phenomena you know um >> truly everyone yes >> yeah I don't know like yeah I don't know any like just one single person who you know who didn't say or who hasn't said you know like oh I don't have that yeah I think this is also very human that we have that and honestly I'm kind of trying to reframe it uh because um this is something that actually makes us human because we it kind of pushes us to evolve, you know, and to really go deeper and to be more compassionate and yeah, just like go into some depth of something, you know, and we basically and I believe that we really have this because well, we care. >> Yeah. That's like that's such a good way to to frame it too is like acknowledging that it's a human thing. So instead of saying like, you know, how do we eradicate this like how do we just push this away? It's like no, accept that this is something that that happens and learn to understand it. Try to interpret what it means and then kind of use it for growth, right? Um it's like things that are challenging help us grow. Things that are uncomfortable help us grow, but they don't help us grow if you just like put all of your energy into like how do I mask this and hide it as much as possible, right? Like leverage it. >> No, I love it. I love it. Yeah. Because we lose energy a lot. It's like fighting with your shadow. It will be always there. Right. >> Right. Yeah. That that's that's exactly it. So instead of fighting it like what what can you do with it? Right. like um but this confidence topic I think is so important because like the reason I wanted to jump into this one is because in my experience with managing people especially at Microsoft in particular as it pertains to communication and language this has been something that comes up all of the time and I've been very fortunate to have employees from Mexico um Brazil Costa Rica so these Latin American uh not companies Latin American countries Um, see I can't there's my English. Um, but the what I've noticed and it's sorry it's not even just these countries. So, I've had people that were like they've been living in the US for years and uh they're from places in Europe and things like that or even um in in Asian countries and the the observation has been that like when I'm in team meetings and stuff like you know they're talking um sometimes I I'll pick up I'll pick up on some things maybe like people are stuttering like I just did or they're um they're pausing a lot to look for words and I'm like that's fine. Like I know English isn't your first language. Like you're doing an amazing job. And to be clear, I can only speak English. So if someone tried to get me to go into a conversation of a different language, I wouldn't say a word because I can't. So these people that are, you know, they're making it through and they're doing a great job. There's little things I can pick up on where I'm like, "Oh, I want I'm curious if if they're stuttering or pausing a lot because maybe they are struggling a little bit." I don't I don't like you know I'm not going to prod them on it but it comes up in one-on ones like naturally people come to me and they'll say like hey I like just so you know like I I have a lot of difficulty feeling confident in team meetings or speaking about these things and I'm sitting there going like damn like you're doing an amazing job like there's no way and maybe I shouldn't use the negative selft talk but I think it would take me an extreme amount of effort and time to be remotely close to being, you know, your level of English, but for me in a different language. But it comes back to confidence. They're they're lacking so much confidence in themselves when they are doing a very good job in the first place. And why this is so challenging, not just in general, because I'm sure that's very challenging for them when it comes to career growth and impact and stuff like that. they feel like they can't have their voice heard in like a technical forum because they're like, I'm not, they could be, you know, they have the algorithm figured out. They know the coding solution to go do it, but now they're like, I don't want to speak up about this because like I don't have confidence to do it. And it's this whole new barrier that's like I don't want to say it's like self-inflicted or self-imposed. It's not really fair to say. sometimes a little bit >> if they're hyperfocused on things, but >> you know, I think it's totally fair that if people aren't comfortable or confident yet >> that this is going to be something that slows them down. So, um, yeah, I just wanted to kind of share that because it's been it's been an observation I've had at work. >> No, this is amazing. That's what I see absolutely the same. Yeah, that's what I'm also helping a lot. I think this is I would say the the most of the focus that I'm doing with people actually to go through you know this building this confidence >> and this is something that I started to do and it's been helping people a lot it's actually um coming from atomic habits by James Clear. >> Oh yeah >> working on uh small wins with people. So noticing small wins and this is something that uh is sometimes even so hard for people because they are not accustomed to notice something good some like little progress it's either huge progress you know or some negative stuff that they cannot do that you know this kind of negative stuff >> and from day one I'm really strict about I'm kind teacher but I can be strict you know Um yeah like really I would say like encourage them to write down every day daily their small wins and like really tracking them down. So after for example our program they need to have at least 50 small wins you know like at the end and at first they like oh my god I cannot you know just just do it just do it and I I'm helping them you know just like noticing but this is you know this actually does some magic honestly because um they start to analyze themselves and they start feeling it because it doesn't matter what I tell them oh you're doing amazing job blah blah blah it's all blah blah blah for them they need to feel it from the inside you know it's kind of it's growing right >> 100% 100% >> and when they start doing that and noticing that and raising awareness actually and this is also something that um helps us also to get into this you know like mindset and state of an explorer we're experimenting you know like in the lab oh this worked okay this doesn't oh okay there is an explosion yeah Okay. Yeah, I will, you know, I will do this like next time and so on. So, we're kind of experimenting and exploring and also the feedback is really important here. And it's really important for me to create from the day one, from the very first meeting. Um, safe environment, right? and this non-judgmental environment so the person feels really comfortable and yeah doesn't feel like oh oh my god I'm making mistakes or whatever that is you know uh so we are exploring here you know so we kind of >> I think that's great the the atomic habit kind of part about making notes about the small wins >> so I don't I don't know if it's like just me or if it's like maybe people that are like you know very into software engineering like need logic ical steps for stuff. Um, when I used to hear this kind of thing, I'm just going to be transparent. I used to be like, that must be just made up. Like, you know, show me some proof of that. That it just sounds ridiculous. Like, it kind of sounds like it's magic. Or, you know, someone was like, that sounds cool. Let me say it. And I'm going to use my wife as an example here, but she would say like things like, you know, if you're using negative selft talk or um if I talk, I do a lot of like when I'm analyzing things, I look for like the worst case scenarios. But she's like, she'll say things like, "Oh, you're manifesting that." And I'm like, "Look, some of this stuff like I can't get behind." But >> I feel like the more that I pay attention to it, there's truths in it. And when you were using the atomic habits referenced and like making note of the small wins, >> it's not okay, and this is I think where I used to struggle with this. It's not that when you write down your small wins that just magically makes you better. >> That's not what's happening, right? It's >> it's the fact that you can have evidence to yourself, hey, look, I am doing good things. It it's not writing it down that magically makes it happen. It's the ability to reflect, the ability to have evidence. And as a result, you now, you kind of said it, you have a feedback loop where you're going, hey, like I'm doing stuff and look, I have evidence. Feedback, feedback, feedback. >> That's the magic. It's not it's not like suddenly you're casting a spell that you write down I did good so therefore I'm good. So anyway, I wanted to say that out loud because I don't know if there's other people that have the same mindset as me where they're like >> that that can't be real. It doesn't just work that way. Like try it because it does. >> No, this is good. This is good. And what I notice uh I have right now for example this client from Philippines and we of course like of course I do this with everyone and he started uh he's like really thoughtful and he brought a lot of awareness >> um to the process that he hasn't done before as he shared with me and uh he shares a lot of stuff that he started to notice not only like the small wins or big wins but actually what's happening and you know what he's doing what works and so on It's helping our process immensely because I'm building on that. Oh, nice. Okay. What if you do this and and we're kind of dancing, you know, uh you know, with our feedback, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. You can leverage different feedback, >> right? Exactly. Because I'm always actively uh obviously searching for the feedback from clients like really I tell them from the start at first they are really uncomfortable with that. Some of them, you know, oh, I don't want to criticize you. I'm like it's not about that. Right? Just, you know, it's like just imagine you're like a software engineer. I don't know you, you build some software. Here's your user and he is using your software and do you think this user's feedback can benefit you so you can improve your software? >> Do you think be like really or it would be like oh he's like just criticizing and he thought okay yeah that makes sense. Okay. >> He might be criticizing but it's still feedback and it's still going to be immensely helpful. So >> I love it. I love it because it's helpful so much because then like oh okay then it's like easy to navigate the ship you know okay we're going like left right >> beautiful >> absolutely um okay now this is really good for confidence and I'm I'm checking your list so you you touched on this earlier in our conversation but I I hadn't thought about this the next one in the rocket framework is K for keep listening actively and you had mentioned that when so much effort is going into all of these other things, something happens and it's your ability to listen actively. So, how do you help clients balance that? Because they're going, I want to improve on all these things. I'm trying to think about all this stuff, >> right? >> And where does the active listening get to happen? >> Exactly. Exactly. Oh, I would say that we are looking into different strategies and we of course we are talking about that guys. It's not like listening to respond because in this case you're constructing something in your head and you actually don't listen but it's listening to understand and we can even role play for example I can tell them something and um I can ask them okay um can you ask me clarifying questions how would you ask me to keep going yes how do you paraphrase uh this is something that you know for some guys is like extremely difficult you know you know like paraphrasing what I have just said to I don't know to validate to make sure that they understood correctly something so in an in an active way and just letting go of everything they they try to construct and yeah and it's surprisingly sometimes it's super difficult but it's a great practice and of course we also um kind of go deeper into the listening because they work of course in all this international environments my sister also uh is a very bright example. When she came to Canada at first, she thought her level of English was very good and she stood that it was like really far from the truth because she was she was surrounded with native speakers mostly. No, I mean they were of course like there are yeah there are some international guys there as well but mostly Canadians and uh they would speak really fast because they this is just their like I would say natural state of being I would say >> and they wouldn't really pause much and they would say you know this like big chunks for example >> and yeah she needed to look at the person like directly to be able to you know kind of catch all these meanings you know because if she overheard somewhere it would be like a melody you know like oh my god >> right okay >> yeah so that's what we are working on you know also uh pay attention to some when the person is making pauses when the person is making some stresses because stress words they convey the meaning so you can also like grasp the meaning right >> and another by the way about the pauses everybody is so uncomfortable with pauses is I'm not an exception. Sometimes I was >> Yeah, it's true. Um, this is the pausing thing. There's a It's a slightly different reason for it, but um we have a CVP at Microsoft in my organization. I I don't think she like invented this, but I think she got it from uh from teachers. And I think this is the story. But anyway, there's situations where she'll say like, "Does anyone have questions?" Or she's waiting for feedback and she will count to 30 in her head, right? She will wait for 30 seconds. And the idea is that for basically everyone, that is so wildly uncomfortable that someone has to speak. >> People aren't good with silence for whatever reason. Um there's different thresholds, but Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's why they have this feeler words like like I mean in a conversation sometimes it's okay when you're like sprinkling this so you kind of it humanizes you but if you're doing a presentation or you are speaking up during the meeting you want to be as concise as possible so it's better to eliminate these things uh or you are I don't know presenting some video or something. So yeah, and just pausing, just giving yourself some time and space to just think. Nobody >> there's nothing wrong with it. >> Exactly. Oh, he he has nothing to say or something. No, yeah, whatever. I don't know. Um, yeah. So, it's something that we're not accustomed to and but this is definitely gives, you know, also other people some space for digestion as well, you know. >> Right. There's actually another thing that I wanted to mention. Um I have a I had a Japanese student and uh I would say one of his main challenges was uh when he came to Canada to work for some company and so people for example would say something like uh really fast and for some period of time and for example he didn't catch something in the beginning. Okay. >> He was like he he he was thinking that it would be so impolite to ask the person clarify >> and what happened that well the person thinks that you understand the message right and they kept talking but he had this misunderstanding misunderstanding there that was just like rolling and becoming bigger and so on. So it was like a really bad situation and um yeah and we worked with him in the beginning from the beginning if you have some question it's totally fine >> to clarify this is actually polite. >> Yeah and like to I can absolutely back that up. There's people on my team who are in oneonone so we're working remotely. We're on video calls and I've absolutely said to people on my team, you know, oneonone like, "Hey, like," and I'll start explaining something and I'm pretty bad at going on for too long. And I've had people go, you know, I can kind of see they're pausing after. They're like, "I didn't understand. Like, could you repeat that?" And I have never once in my life been like, "I can't believe someone had the audacity to ask me to repeat it. I'm offended." I'm like, "Oh, like thank like in my head I am thinking, thank you so much for asking that because if you would have just been like mhm and like not understood what would have happened." So people will ask and then I go, "Oh, like no problem." And I just find a different way to explain it. I've always had the mindset when you're communicating with people if someone doesn't understand what you're saying, it's not like it's not their fault. it's your fault as the person communicating it and then you need to find a different way to try and explain it. So you know people asking for clarity it's great. >> Yeah. And we also think in different way we phrase things in different way. Um and also like when another person and this is actually interesting point that it's also like my responsibility when I'm conveying some message it's my responsibility that the person understands it exactly the message that I want them to understand because sometimes they can be yeah yeah sure something different it happens >> they heard you yeah >> I know yeah they heard you right yeah sure and they do something completely different and like what's happening but you told me like this wow I didn't know that it could be understood this way. Right. >> Right. >> Yeah. So, >> communication. >> Sure. Exactly. Yeah. So, yeah. Even I don't know in my native language, I don't know, my friends sometimes told me, "Mary, could you repeat that?" or something. Or, "I didn't catch that. I didn't get it." Or, "I don't know." Or, "Oh, I have some porridge in my mouth or something." You know, like, "Oh, sorry. Too tired or whatever." >> It just happens to me, you know, also from time to time. So, I think it's totally fine. It's normal. It's part of communication. So, no, I think that's really good. Um, and we have two more on the list. It's the last word, the IT part. Um, and then these ones are really good, too. So, uh, inspire, inspire, influence, and impact. That's three eyes al together. Um, can we Yeah. Can you tell us more about what, uh, this one means? >> Right. Well, I would say it's about, um, uh, delivering some presentation, right? or during the meeting. But once again, it's it's it's not really about just what I don't know PowerPoint presentation. It can be just presenting during the meeting about some feature that you I don't know you came up with to your colleagues and make sure that once again how you do that how impactful you are that other people also get it and they take action and they really like listen to you and stuff >> and um yes and that you showcase your expertise and you can handle questions for example right so you come across as a wow influential person and this is very interesting because uh I remember and this is actually this comes to the next one. Okay, I will kind of the next one. Yeah. So the the next one is tailor your tech expertise to non- tech stakeholders. >> I love this one by the way. I know and this is a big one because uh I remember it's actually started with a client of mine and he came to me and he told me you know what I would like to be more persuasive and assertive >> right >> give me phrases certain phrases >> okay >> that I can say to persuade other people I'm like okay kind of doesn't sound right? You know, I'm not sure that, you know, >> we we started to dig deeper into the well, what what was the situation like in what situation you would like to be more persuasive or whatever? And he said that, oh, it's um actually my miscommunication with my manager and then I started kind of to dig deeper and talk like with uh tech guys and also talk with managers to understand their perspective as well. And I even had like a few lives with I don't know Graham Vitali and Lucas Artton and so on. So because they really shed some light for me on this topic. And you too by the way. Um you had an amazing interview with John Cricket >> right. Yeah. >> And you talked a lot about business value. >> Yeah. >> This is something that uh I can understood because it can be not about the language that is the problem. It can be that you talk about different perspectives, right? And >> 100%. >> Yeah. In a lot of cases, software engineers, they can be a little bit too like they have they can have some narrow perspective just within their scope, >> right? >> And not going beyond that, right? And managers, they have different perspective, right? And they need to take care of business and business outcomes and everything. And of course, if you don't connect these two things, miscommunication happens. Not because of your grammar. Sorry. Or >> Yeah. It's not your accent, it's not your grammar, it's something else. Yes. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. And this is something that we also talk with them and uh and this is already about being proactive, right? And really understanding and wanting to understand the bigger picture and talk to the manager. really trying to um kind of get into those shoes, you know, to really understand what they care about, what they need, and so on. And start communication from that angle, open uh ask open-ended questions, for example. Um yeah, and then find some common solutions that can benefit both of you, >> right? uh but it's about the conversation that is based on you know this information and really kind of getting to know into that using English just as a tool. >> That's I I think uh I I love this list because when I look at the when I look at rocket in my head I was like some of these things like I know that they apply lang it's language agnostic. It doesn't matter if it's English as your second or first language. some of these things, especially when it comes to confidence, I'm like, I've seen this come up more with folks that uh English is a second language. So, I'm like, okay, I can understand maybe some of this feels like it's more tailored for, you know, ESL kind of situations. Totally fine. But this last one in particular is and like how this all builds up, I'm like, it has it has nothing to do with language at all. It's and when I I when I say language I mean like um like English or Spanish or like spoken language. It's all about the sort of like the perspective or the the value proposition. So this individual that you were talking about that was saying you know what phrases can I use to be more persuasive. I'm not like an expert saleserson and I think a lot of uh software engineers or engineers in general don't like thinking about sales, >> right? But when you're trying to persuade people, it's quite like selling. Like you need to be able to think what value does this is this person that I'm trying to communicate, what are they after, right? If if you're trying to say, I think we should go do thing X. >> If you're not explaining to the other person the value that they're going to get out of it, why would they ever want that? Right? Like it would be like me saying to my wife like, "I know you want a new house, but this new car, this new car, like I like this would be a great thing for us." She'd look at me like, "What are you talking about?" Well, I I want the car, right? But so I need to say to my wife like, "Hey, if we got the car, then the house would come with it or something, right?" Obviously a terrible example, but she wants the house >> or something like that, you know? >> Yeah. You have to find what people are after to be able to persuade them. So that way you can find a way to, as you said, meet them in the middle in your communication. And without it, I think that's the biggest gap. It's not going to be a language barrier. >> Exactly. Exactly. And confidence. And honestly, when I just work with guys, they come with certain set of problems that they tell me they have, >> right? But usually that's really far from the truth, >> right? Yeah. And and that's good. It's good that you can navigate that with them, right? That's that's so awesome. >> Yeah. No. Yeah. Of course. We kind of we talk about them and we and I try also not just talk about them but to show once again through different things. So they actually use their awareness and use their own observations and see them see for themselves and then they are able to make this change >> right >> because otherwise uh yeah of course I give my feedback of course this is also important because oh oh I haven't thought about this way or something so it's it's beneficial but I would say even more beneficial when they can see it for themselves and then yeah this like more lasting change you know can really >> right. You're giving them the tools to be able to kind of, you know, longer term do this for themselves, which I think is is awesome. I I wanted to mention that I think like a a really good takeaway from this conversation for me, I kind of hinted at it a little bit earlier was just like again the framework that you're going through is so applicable to it's not just people um you know where English is not their first language but um so many of these things are are things that everyone could benefit from in software engineering and I'm sure other other disciplines as well but I you know I notice it a lot with software for engineers and I think many people could benefit from it. Of course, um you introduce extra friction and barriers when English is not your first language. So, um you know, I think you're doing an an amazing uh bit of work here by trying to help people through this because I think it's one of the most impactful things you could do in software engineering. >> Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah. And it's just inspires me, I would say, a lot to work with communication as I already mentioned, right? And when I see I always tell to my clients, you know what? Uh my best part of work is uh to help you to get rid of the limitations that you have in your head and not to teach you present perfect. Seriously, >> right? Yeah. I think that's great. I think that's they need to hear that. >> Yes. Absolutely. >> Awesome. Well, I I should I'll get more information from uh from you and stuff offline, but if you want to let people know where can they find you if they want to get in touch with you. >> Right. Right. Well, I have a website mariazaninoa.com. Uh and there are different ways how you can I would say you can write me in email or there is some form that you can just uh yeah just basically leave your request or something. And um also LinkedIn just write me a DM and uh we can figure out because uh basically yes I offer for now this uh 10 week customized program for tech professionals and um yeah so first of all we of course meet for just a free chat for 30 minutes and just understand what are the challenges uh right what is the context and like if what I have matches your situation that's it All right, that that makes sense. >> That's great. And I'll, like I said, I'll make sure I'll I'll get those links from you so that I don't uh mess up any spelling or anything like that. They'll be in the comments in the description as well so that people can go check that out. So, I wanted to say thank you so much for having the time to to talk through this. I think it's an incredibly important topic. Um, I push two really big narratives. One of them is about communication in software engineering. So, um I'm glad to have other people come on and talk about that. >> Oh, thank you so so much for having me, for inviting me, and it's been really a pleasure. Uh yeah, as you said, you're I don't know, such an open and kind person, and you're just, you know, like the same offscreen like everywhere, you know, >> you're not going to tell people this was all just a character that I put on. And so, >> Exactly. Yes. Just Yeah. Just amazing conversation. So, thank you for that. >> Cool. Okay. Well, thanks again. Um, and yeah, for folks that are watching, uh, definitely check out Maria. Um, you've heard from her all the awesome benefits. So, u, I think there's a lot to be gained. So, thanks for watching and we'll see you next time. >> Thank you. Bye-bye.