Theme Parks, Bakeries, and G-Code: Samantha’s Unexpected Path Into Software

My guest today is Samantha Lopez, who currently holds the record on this podcast for the most interesting and varied sequence of jobs leading up to software development. And this is exactly why I love having these conversations because I think it's super important to see that not everyone has the exact same journey getting into development. So, we'll see from Samantha these different roles that she's had. And the one thing that I want to encourage you to do is think about the role that she's describing as she goes through her career journey and think about how that could be applicable in a software development environment. Because as she was talking to me, that's one of the things I picked up on that even though she wasn't writing code or it seemed like it was completely different from software development, there's a lot of interesting overlap in terms of the types of interactions that we have in these roles in software development. So, I think that you're really going to enjoy this one. And like I said, a lot of curve balls in terms of the career progression, but I think it's super interesting. So sit back, enjoy, and I'll see you next time. >> Samantha, if you wouldn't mind, could you kick us off with your career journey and you could start as early as you'd like. So if you want to go way back to when, you know, you were a kid and you were like, I know I want to go into tech or or maybe that looked completely different for you. I think you can kind of pick as early or late as you'd like, but I think that would be awesome to start off. >> All right. No pressure. Yeah, no pressure. Well, I hope you're in for a roller coaster. Uh, this is it was it was my journey into tech was not straightforward. >> Okay. >> It was I bounced around a lot. Um, but I did know I was a a tech person. Like I was very like techsavvy in my like early years. >> Um, like I was the person that my family would, you know, kind of rope into like we need your help with this. It's like how this isn't working like for computers and stuff, >> right? >> So I would >> Microsoft isn't working and you're like >> yeah like why >> mom dad no this is you're you're doing this wrong. This is how this works. >> Yeah. That's not the fax machine. This is Yeah. Okay. >> That was me for the longest time. Um and like I had like this old Windows 95. Y'all remember that? the uh in the 95 in my room. It didn't have internet or anything, but it was it was the only computer that we had for the longest time. >> And I would I would just like scroll through the start menu and uh look at like all the different the different menus that would pop up if you get to like one of the end of the like the arrows. >> I just was fascinated by all the different settings and just everything to do with like computers was just super super interesting to me. And like I'm I'm a huge nerd. I I I play video games. Like I watch anime. Like just being in that like like tech world is just my thing. Um >> but I just didn't it wasn't like at the like it wasn't super obvious to me at the time like >> um >> like a career kind of thing. Like you were like I'm in I like technical things. I like technology. But but it it just didn't I didn't know how to pursue it as a career, if that makes any sense. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Um also like I was homeschooled, so um it was just me and my sister and my mom for the most part throughout my school years and we didn't really we didn't we didn't really have like tech classes, you know. >> Okay. I'm actually, by the way, not to I don't mean to interrupt you, but I think I I have to hear because I'm very curious. I don't know if I've talked to anyone, you might be the first person I've talked to about career journeys that has that is or was homeschooled >> that that at least has mentioned that in the career journey. So I would be very curious if you have >> sort of like thoughts on that like in retrospect if you're like if do you feel like that sort of changed your exposure to things in tech >> as a result of that? >> I think I think I would say yes because um I just I it was very it was it was very sheltered you know. >> Okay. um I could I would only learn about the things that my mom would, you know, put in the curriculum for us to learn. So I I feel like in in a public school, I only went to public school in like my first second grade kindergarten, which you know, those don't really count. You don't really learn anything. Um it's just for funsies. But um we didn't have like tech classes in in you know we didn't I didn't have the opportunity to even uh I think we had like a typing class and that was it. That was about as techie as it got. Um but my my my parents my parents you know they they they know me. They knew I was a techie. And um during my final year of high school, they they just they they're they're not tech-savvy people. So >> they just kind of threw this code academy course at me. >> They went from like uh typing as the only type of uh computer related tech thing going on, at least in like the school setting. >> Yep. to like, oh, wait, by the way, here's here's this and it's coding. >> Well, I pretty much I I remember I accidentally stumbled upon the inspect tool. >> Okay. >> You know, I like accidentally hit a button on my keyboard. I mean, and now I know, but I did at the time I was like, "Oh my god, what did I do?" >> Right? >> And then I started like scrolling through the code just like looking at it. I was like, "Whoa, >> what is that?" Yeah. >> What is that? That is so cool. Um, and then I closed it and I didn't know how to get back to it. But that was that was my very first time seeing the inspectal which was, you know, super eye opening. Um, but then I saw, you know, through Code Academy, the Code Academy course that um I I I took in high in high school. >> I'm like, "Oh my gosh, this this is what I was looking at. This like HTML, this is what I was the inspect tool that I saw that I was able to make that kind of correlation." And um I really I really enjoyed it. I really just loved like building and kind of figuring figuring out how how it worked. And I think it it it uh it evolved into a little bit of C CSS, but it didn't I didn't I think my mom just like gave it to me as like a start on this, see where you end up. There was no like you need to make it to this point. She just was like, "Just just go for it." >> And I'm assuming like, and I don't mean for this to sound condescending about your mother especially, but like it sounds like the way that you're describing the situation, like she probably would not have known of like what the sort of destination would have looked like. It's kind of like get started, here's something, and >> go in a direction. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, my my parents were not tech-savvy at all. Like they've obviously they've gotten better. they you know they can they can use a computer but like coding programming that's like an entirely we didn't know anybody in tech so they just that is a completely different world to them >> uh so all they knew was I like computers >> right >> like here you go try this out that's all they that's all it was just like here just try this >> right >> um so I knew I liked it they knew I liked it um but at the time I didn't really have like any way to pursue it at the time. I didn't have my own computer or laptop. I didn't have anything. So, they're just like, "Well, just try try different jobs and see what you like." >> Right. >> It's basically how my career got started. Well, and that uh that that first sort of uh code academy thing that you were looking at, I guess I'm very curious like when you jump into something like that because this uh this scenario going from like I don't want to say quite nothing but like you know close to nothing to like okay now you're going to start looking at at code. Um, I guess did did you understand at that point like just how vast like this could be or was it just like okay like I'm starting on this direction. It's kind of neat and like not really sure what's on the horizon. >> No, I think that's another reason why I just didn't I didn't I didn't know even like how to pursue it. >> I mean, I knew there were there were like there was there was college. I knew there was I just I just I just didn't know. I wasn't I just didn't know I I at the time um you know I was I was in the mentality of like I don't know what to do for a career. >> Um and like I was unsure about whether or not to even go to college because if that you know that's a lot of money you know sometimes those things ain't cheap. >> Um especially for something that I wasn't sure I was going to use in the future. Um, so I just I took my parents advice and was just like, "All right, let's just jump into the workforce and see what like what sticks." So, >> was that like in the beginning, was it something related to like coding and tech that you were able to jump into right away or was it kind of like I got to start working and it's whatever whatever the job is that I can get to start? I it was not I I I jumped around a lot of different jobs that had really nothing to do with tech honestly. That's why this is like such a it was a very it was a very roundabout way for me to get here. But I mean looking back like obviously I see now like oh my gosh yeah you're totally into tech. Like why didn't you pursue this sooner? >> Right. >> But at the time you know I'm just just out of high school. Okay. like make you make this life choice, this big life choice, what are you going to do for your career? Like I don't I don't I don't know. >> In hindsight, that feels like like I thought about this a lot and it feels like I think there's some people that uh coincidentally or whatever they happen to know at a young age, whether that's their their parents or something maybe they discover for themselves. Feel like a lot of the time it's parents are kind of like, "Hey, it turns out like you probably like this. Like here you go. Go in this direction." And then they kind of have enough influence on the child to say like you are going to be a software developer, you're going to go work in finance, whatever. And so some I feel like some kids are like, okay, like I just I kind of know what I'm doing or supposed to do because this has just been ingrained. And I feel like there's a lot like maybe most people are just like I don't really know and you're telling me as a kid I'm supposed to like I think the framing is like you're telling me I need to make a decision right now that's supposed to be what we're assuming is the rest of my life and my career >> like that. And I'm not saying that is the reality like because you can change careers but I feel like that's the setup that we're given. It's like make this important decision now because that's the rest of your life and you're like, >> "Okay, all right. I guess >> no no consequences with this, right?" Like I can't >> sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So that's that's kind of how it was for you. You were like like I have to start with >> I have to choose something now. Just like this. I don't like yolo essentially. I was >> all right. Let's let's just go for it. Um, fortunately my very first job I I I enjoyed it, but it was like a seasonal thing. Um, I I worked at a theme park. >> Awesome. Okay. >> I know, right? It was it was a lot of fun. I was a games attendant, so you know those those uh people that run like game booths and you pay and they just let you toss a ball or ring toss or something like that? That was me. >> I'm gonna have a question for you a little bit later regarding this, by the way. So, I want to hear about uh I'd love to hear about this job and if you have other jobs before you get into software, >> I want to hear about all of them if you don't mind sharing because I already have a question about this one I want to come back to when we start talking about when you're working in in software. I got one I got one queued up here forget it. >> All right, cool. Um uh well, I think I was I think I was there for a few seasons and uh eventually they were they wanted uh like a supervisor. >> Okay. for for that department. And so I'm like, I' I've I know I know this department like really good. I've been here for a while. I know everything there is to know. Like me me I'm supervisor material. So I uh I was >> overseeing that department as a supervisor for for a season. >> What did that look like in comparison to when you were sort of running the I'm assuming like sort of like the individual sort of game stand versus >> Yeah. Mhm. >> Now being a supervisor like what did that transition look like in terms of your responsibilities? >> Well, I mean there was there was uh you know training training new people that uh you know new people to the department to on on each game depending on you know where we wanted them stationed at. Uh also there's like money there's you know people pay to play the the games. So everybody's every attendant is in charge of like their own belt of money, >> right? And as the supervisor, you kind of have to you're you're handling a large amount of cash at times. Uh just like whether it's bringing them change so that they have smaller bills if they were, you know, they would pay with bigger bills. >> Um there's >> are you still running a like a not right now, sorry, but in in that role in that role, are you also still running sort of your own or are you kind of now just enabling the others to run their own? >> Enabling the others. Yes, exactly. Um, but there's like, you know, you got a radio, you're getting calls like to go different places and just like kind of put out fires in different different areas, handle complaints or that kind of that kind of stuff. Um, inventory, that was the big, you know, you're giving out plushies and stuff. Got to make sure the department has, you know, uh, enough enough plushies to make it through like a big old a big weekend. >> Sure. Yeah. And um yeah, that's that's that's essentially uh what I did as a supervisor. It's been a long time also. So >> like recalling all these memories was like whoa. Yeah, >> I that was a lot that was a lot of stuff I did back then. Um >> uh but after like like that was a seasonal position anyway. you know, the where I live, you know, it's wintertime eight months out of the year. So, the theme park is closed for that >> pretty much that time except for I mean, I think they do do now uh like a like an October scary thing. >> But, uh other than that, the theme park is only open for maybe three or four months. So, I kind of had to figure out I this isn't this isn't a sustainable role. It's fun. I love it, but it's not a career, you know. Um, so I I did a little bit of retail. Just everybody's got to do retail once. That was that was customer service was fun. And I did that for about a year just kind of while I was trying to figure out what my next move was, >> right? >> Um because I'm still in that I'm still in that where >> Sure. Go ahead. Go ahead. >> Oh, sorry. I was just going to say while while this is happening, >> have you uh like sort of parked software, parked uh coding or like looking into these things because that was like, hey, I tried it out like that was neat, but like I'm just trying to go explore like what I I have to go find my career now. Like, okay. >> Yep. Essentially, bas like that's that's exactly where my mind was. I mean, also it it there was there was this part of me like while I was learning it, like this is the kind of thing that, you know, it's going to take years to to truly like grasp like to to be like job eligible, you know. Um, and again, I I didn't know anybody in the in the industry. I didn't know if it was something that I would like enjoy. I just I just had I just didn't know. I I just didn't know. Um so yeah, software engineering was just a side thing like yeah I just completely also I didn't even have my own computer that didn't that didn't help. >> I got my first like laptop I think it was 2017 2018. Yeah. Um, so after I was a supervisor and and a retail associate, I finally figured like, okay, let's think about what I really like to do. What what do I like? I was really good at math in school and from my supervisory experience at the theme park, like I was a I was a pretty decent people person, you know? I I I could conversate with with people just at the theme park, no problem. like face to face. I I enjoyed that. And so I kind of kind of brains brainstorming like what kind of role would combine those two. And I thought, hey, maybe I may I might make a really good teller like at a bank. >> You know, they use they use computers. They do they kind of do some math, you know, >> and they they talk to people face to face every day. like this seems like this seems like a good career like start. Let's just see how I how I like this to me logically that just made sense. So, uh I really liked it. I really I really liked it. I worked as a teller in two different um two different companies. What I did not foresee was this like emphasis on sales that they had >> I wouldn't have assumed. >> Right. >> Okay. >> Right. So I don't I mean I don't know who walks into their bank and is like expecting their teller to try to sell them a product or like a loan or a credit card. I that's never happened to me. It's never happened to me ever. Ever. >> I Yeah. It's, you know what, I I was trying to I'm trying to think through this and I'm like, okay. And so I am originally from Canada. Our banking is a little bit different. Um, but even but even so, I'm like, okay, but if I were if I were running a bank, a bank is a business. I'm like, maybe it does make sense that you make everyone who can someone who can sell. But then, so part of me is going, I don't think I actually really experienced that when I when I ever gone to a bank. there were always other people that were sort of around and so if you were kind of waiting in line and it's not like overwhelming they might come up and chat with you and they're trying to sell. >> Um but you know if that's not happening then I could almost I could >> see yeah maybe tellers trying to like sell you things like is a very >> convenient opportunity for them. >> Yes. Uh that's I did not it was there was no like um uh in like the job description or even as I was interviewing with these these companies like there was no there was no emphasis on sales. They didn't like bring that up. So it was kind of like like oh I'm I'm what I'm expected to sell things. Um, at the first company it was more like a like a like a perk if you if you were able to uh convince somebody to uh you know get a loan or a credit card, you got like a little like a bonus or something. >> Sure. >> Great incentive. Awesome. Um, at the at the last company I I was with as a teller, it was expected and you were like publicly like by the te in in the team, you were kind of publicly like shamed if you were not >> if you were not like living up to their expectations like this so this many sales like th in a month time and >> that's like a psychological safety problem. >> It was It was probably No, that was my least favorite my least favorite job. Um like major props to everybody who can do sales because when I tried to it just it just didn't feel natural. I it just feels manipulative and I didn't feel good about it. >> Right. Um, >> and then as a result then you're going to be like, well, I'm not going to do that. And then and then yeah, kind of this vicious cycle, I'm assuming, which doesn't I I tried. I gave it my best shot. Um, but I got more people looking at me like, why would I want why would I want a credit card? Like, and I'm like, >> I don't know, but by get it to tell you about it. So, I don't know that it just it just it just was not I mean after after trial and error, it just was not for me. That profession was not for me. Um so, I kind of had to figure out something else. I And I'm I'm running out of ideas at this point. Like I what what else do I like, >> right? Um, >> by the way, I like that I like that the framing as you're talking through this is like what do I like? And I I wanted to to pause to say that because I when I have people that will reach out to me and we're talking about like career direction and stuff, it's almost never what do I like? And I I I think that's incredibly important. It's always like, "Oh, there's there's no path here. Like, it's not going to make money or it's gonna, you know, the this career trajectory is going to end." And I'm like, >> "Why can't we focus?" I know, don't get me wrong, some things that you really like may not be great for making lots of money or something, but I think that it's important that for a sustainable career, it's something that you enjoy at least. >> Yes, exactly. I completely agree. And like I um like growing up on my I know I know a lot of people that just only do their jobs because that's that's they have to. They feel like they just have to. They don't enjoy it. And it just >> like like seeing all these other people I'm just like I I don't >> if I can find something that I truly am passionate about, you know, and and also is like a solid career choice, >> I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna go for that. Absolutely. Um that was definitely my my main like incentive for for choosing the jobs that I did. >> Um which this this this next this next role >> I love baking. I love I love cooking. I love I love just baking in general. Just being >> okay. >> So I just completely completely went in a different direction. And um I was like, "Well, let me see if there's any any professional, you know, baking rolls around." And I found one at a very high-end resort, which was um felt like it was it was a lot of pressure. You know, you you got to be you got to be good. But I was in >> I have no concept of like anything involved in that, but like when you said it, I'm like, first of all, incredible. Uh, second of all, I'm like >> I'm imagining I I'm imagining there is a lot of stress that I don't want to imagine myself doing. So, as you're about to talk about this, I feel like I'm going to get like secondhand like stress from you describing it, but I think I'm ready. So, go ahead. >> All right. All right. All right. All right. Um, well, like I I >> I knew nothing. I other than like home style like sure >> cooking and baking that's all I knew. I knew I enjoyed it. I didn't have any professional background whatsoever. But I think I was fortunate in the fact that they just needed help. So they they they let me they let me come on and uh I got to learn I got to learn how to make a bunch of ice cream, how like super fancy ice cream and pies and cakes and cookies and it was so much fun. uh getting to getting to do that. Um the only downside was this the team that they had just felt like there was a lot of animosity between them. >> Interesting between the team members. >> Yeah. You ever like feel like you start start a new job and it feels like, you know, starting starting a show in the middle of like season five or something? Everybody else knows each other. They have history and stuff like that. Um, but you're just coming in. You you don't know what's going on. You're just you're you're brand stinking new. Uh, that's kind of how it felt like. >> So, um, I didn't I didn't know why there was just like kind of this hostility. I just felt this hostility between like these different sections of the kitchen. Um cuz we had like uh I was on a team working mainly on like cakes and cookies and occasionally like our our orders would you know take some take some pies and stuff like that. Um, but there's just like other sections of the kitchen that do like fancier like event stuff. Like they would make really really gorgeous um desserts for, you know, like I don't know VIP people just events that people would pay a lot of money to go go see like corporate events even. Um, and I just I just it just wasn't the it wasn't it didn't make any sense to me. Like you're all on the same team. >> Mhm. >> Why? Like there was parts where if if another team how it how it kind of worked was like if you're if you use the rest of like an ingredient you have to remake it for the next person that comes by. Right. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Like that makes total sense. Like that's just how see make things. >> Yeah. You're going to it's going to be needed. So like instead of screwing over the next person, it's like everyone is going everyone is going to need this at some point. to just make sure that it's there. >> Exactly. And like a big a big thing that everybody would use would it'd be like m marcapone or some kind of some kind of filling. Everybody used it or like mousse. Um but it would take a lot of time to recreate a a giant batch. And like I I was told going into it like that's what we were supposed to do. We were supposed to recreate the next batch for the next person that used it. And then lo and behold, when I get I get I'm I'm working on the job and the person who's teaching me is like, "No, no, no. We don't we don't we don't do that. We're just going to we're just going to leave it." I was just kind of like, "What?" But but but it just it just didn't make any sense. I don't know. Uh yes, >> it's it's really interesting like as you're talking about these different remember when I said I have a question for later. I'm still not going to ask it yet, but there's another like there's one right now even. So spoiler alert, there's a lot of things that you're talking about that I think on the surface if some like anyone's watching or listening, they're like, "Okay, well this this isn't related to software development because we haven't gotten to that part yet." Everything you're talking about has incredible parallels to working in software development teams and the one that you're talking about right now has nothing to do with coding but everything to do about working in a organization where teams are not necessarily supporting each other even though realistically everyone has the same common goal which is to deliver value to customers. So, it's very interesting. You're not talking right now about coding products or, you know, shipping uh products or having live services running, but this type of thing where you have different teams and they're not really supporting each other and there's some animosity and it's kind of like screw it every every man or every person for themsel. Like that happens in software teams as well. not only across teams where you have, you know, interteam challenges, but like you can also have this issue like with individuals on teams. So the the thing that you're describing and I can tell like as you're talking about it, you can see the frustration where you're like, I just like this. It feels so like bad. It feels so silly. This literally happens with software teams and it's and I know that feeling because I can I can see it on you as you're talking about it where it's like I just don't understand why people are doing this >> and they do it in software as well. So I just wanted to stop to say that part because it's really interesting as you're talking through these. >> Yeah. I I mean I've worked on teams pretty much in every in every single role like as a supervisor I had a team of team of game attendants you know I mean uh in retail you know we had a team of we're all working together towards this one thing and to jump into this job and just have everybody so like kind of just doing their own thing uh it was it was just didn't like I could see like prod production like suffer ing. >> Yeah. >> Because of people not wanting to work together. >> It was it was I don't know. It was because of that that I ended up leaving it. I really enjoyed, you know, uh uh baking and and you know making little cute little cute little cookies and and cakes and stuff. >> Do that job not only from the stress because I would eat everything like >> Oh yes, there >> it was. That was a bonus. If we were if we were making something new, we got to we got to sample it. So, >> okay. Yeah, put me on that team where we make the new things because that's all I'm doing. >> But yeah, it was really just because of that that kind of like that toxic team environment. I just kind of had to move on. >> And um that was kind of my like my last harrah. Like I knew I knew I liked uh I knew I liked math and being a people person and baking and like what else is there to me? what else is there that I would like to do? And I was just fresh out of ideas at that point. I was really just like kind of where do I go? So I did something completely out of the box. I just like well >> the baking was out of the box. You got one more that's out of the box. Okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yep. I I got more. This roller coaster ride. Um, I just I chose this job because it was something I had I had no idea if I was going to be good at it or not. Um, >> okay. >> I decided to uh apply to be an assembler at a knife factory. >> Okay. So, this is this is completely different. You're right. Okay. >> Completely different. And um I didn't know I didn't know anything about working in a factory. I didn't really know anything about knives, but like hey, I can build things. I'm really good at building things. And uh so it was this is actually this job is actually where like the game kind of changed for me. Everything I started realizing this is this is the moment. This is the pivotal moment right here where um I remembered like how much I enjoyed software which is surprising because as an assembler like that's what um I really enjoyed the job like all it um all it was it was it was um you know you had to deal with a lot of like small parts and screws and stuff. We were essentially building this knife from scratch, like hunting knives um is where is the um the kind of knives that I was usually building on on again this team of people. We're all we're all just in a line like doing our own uh part of building this knife and passing it down the line. >> Um I really enjoyed that. Um but about a month and month month or two into um like being at this at this new role, they installed a CNC machine in our area. >> Okay. I'm predicting the future. Keep keep going. Yeah. >> Keep going. >> You know what a CNC machine is, right? >> Yeah. >> Okay. Okay. So yeah, I like to I like to describe it as like an industrial size like 3D printer except you're just cutting out parts from like material, you know. Um >> yeah, the inverse of a printer but the same you put stuff in, you get stuff out. Yeah. But >> Exactly. Exactly. And I I'm pretty sure like uh it u what is it the those printers they run on G-code or something like that, right? they'd have some sort of I've seen some machines that run on G-code, and that was my very first exposure to to G-code uh program. >> I do I do not know like the language or or anything. So, just for the record, I know what a CNC machine is. I have seen one running. >> Yes, >> that's it. >> Yes. Um I they again no knowledge of I didn't know what a CNC machine was back then. I'm just this I'm a new girl month and a half into her new job, you know, building knives. And I think they did this as like this is how it came across in my opinion. It felt like a little like a hazing like, "Hey, let's try and teach some new girl how to run the CNC machine." They they didn't It was brand new to them, too, but they're just like, "Let's just see what Let's see what she does." >> Okay. Um cuz they had a um they already had like a guy um cutting out blades for them uh who had been doing it for years. He didn't been doing it on another another machine. Um but they specifically wanted to start using the CNC machine to kind of speed up the process. >> Okay. and they they trained this this older guy and they trained me. And out of the two of us, I was I was way better at it. >> I was >> And you thought this was like at this point when you're going through this training for it, you're still kind of feeling like it's a like a hazing type of thing where they're >> I'm like there like like they told me about it. They're like, "Hey, would you want to try to learn this CNC machine?" >> I don't I don't know what that I don't know what that is, but sure. Yes, let's toss me on there. I am super open to it. Let's do it. >> Um, also because a part of me is like, I want to I want to I know they're trying to like >> like like intimidate or scare me. Like I want to prove them wrong. I want to be so good at this. So, um, I I was basically their CNC person. I went from a knife assembler to their main CNC person. I was like overseeing um like the new programs and stuff and that they would implement for new blades and everything. And I could I mean I I learned like how to kind of read through the G-code and I would like edit it if if I knew something needed to be changed. Um, and like the guy that had taught me, the guy that had he I'd spent like maybe a few hours with him initially. He was just showing me this the ropes of how to run the CNC machine. And eventually like he he started to realize like how much I really liked like the G-code and like I really liked looking at that and uh and kind of messing with it and figuring out how it how it kind of worked. And so he took me back to the they have like a a completely different area where there's a bunch of computers and that's where they um create these these you know and test the new programs and stuff. >> Okay. >> And they just kind of let me hang out and and watch like the process and it was super super interesting and amazing. Um, and like as he's he's walking me back and he he just told me he's like like you you're I could tell like you your eyes just like light up when you look at the code. Like I can totally tell like that's something that you need you should probably like look into. If you're if you like that like I highly encourage you to to look for some kind of a career in tech. >> That's interesting. it was be he realized it like before I was like yes this is something that I wanted to pursue. So, it's it's all kind of thanks to him where I'm like, "Hey, yeah, wait a minute. >> I do like tech. I like I like this stuff." Yeah. What what was that thing? What was that course I took back in high school again? I wonder how I wonder I wonder how I could get back into that. >> That's essentially how this kind of started. And I just eventually kind of circled back to kind of web development and and software engineering and stuff. Um, so like on the side for a while I was trying to figure out um, you know, where where if I was to like learn more about this, where do I even start? Like technology has advanced so so much more, you know, than when I than when I was in high school. >> In this conversation, it's already advanced a lot. So yeah, but >> five minutes ago it was completely different. So um it I just I did I had no idea where to start, but I tried to like figure out, you know, um I looked at some just some HTML stuff that I I could remember I could recall from that class. I remember academy. I tried to look at some maybe some courses on there and see if uh if it really was something that like like I was like my in like the intuition was right like this is a path that I really want to follow. Um and I had my own laptop at that time so I could finally finally look at >> No more excuses, right? Yeah. >> No more excuses. Exactly. Um uh let's see. And then I I I I knew as soon as I I started looking back into it, I'm like, "Yeah, this this feels this feels right. This is I enjoy it." >> And like not not only do I enjoy it, I actually see like career opportunities, you know, that I I didn't I just didn't understand when I was back in high school. I just didn't know about, >> right? Um, so I I eventually had to leave the kn the knife factory, but I had this this time now to kind of pursue this. And I was like, again, there's so much there's so much to software, there's so much to technology, there's so many languages and frameworks now. Like, where do I start? So, I was on the lookout for some sort of structured way to kind of progress like my how do how do I how do I get to like like uh job worthy if that's you know >> this is such a common thing um where people are like okay like I'm even for the people that are like I I'm going to be a programmer like they know it early right there's a lot of people that are like >> going to go to college and I'm you know doing my computer science degree. I'm doing something related to technology and then they're like I don't like what where do I even go here because there's so much that so that when you brought up like something guided right like that I think a lot of people are looking for that because they're like >> you know I want I want the most efficient way to get me from wherever I am now to like you said I want to make sure that I can get a job. >> Yes. >> What's that path? Other people have done this, right? And they're kind of looking around being like, there's a million paths here. Like >> what? Like where do I start? >> Exacted. >> Exactly. I I really had no idea where to even like look for some kind like I've seen I'd seen boot camps and stuff like that. There are a lot of um there are a lot of paid ones >> which I I would have been I would have been okay with with paying them but I also wanted to make sure that I I was like it was going to be a beneficial experience. You know I I just I knew like at the end of this course like am I going to feel like like I'm ready, you know, if that makes any sense. Um um I tried to do I I I dabbled around a little bit with those, but eventually I stumbled across 100 devs. >> Okay. >> Yeah. Have you you've heard of them, right? >> Yep. Yep. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, I think I found them through like some kind of a YouTube short and initially I'm just like, "Okay, let's see what these guys are about." >> And we'll all just we'll just go from there. And I went through the first couple of classes and I did like the homework and stuff. I finally got like the gist that, you know, okay, this this is a legit this is a legit thing. And I I could see like, you know, they've got the the classes all laid out to where you're where you're going to end up by the end of it. Um, >> how did you find doing the homework? Sorry to I'm curious about this because >> homework is a word that I mean bothers me right now. Um, because I remember I have, you know, flashbacks of like having to do homework and being like, I don't want to do things that people tell me. So I'm curious. Was this something where you were like it was just so interesting to you that you were like hell yeah I want to do it or was this like you're kind of looking at it like I know I need to do this so I'm just going to get it done like what what was kind of going through your mind when you're like got homework like you have to you're either going to do it or not right so like what was your incentive to like to get it done? I mean, I it it was interesting enough to me where it didn't feel at least like the first like initial classes, you know, they start you out with HTML and and and CSS and it's very gradual, which is like it's like perfect and and it was very it was visual, which is kind of how I kind of how I learn. Mhm. >> Um, so doing doing the the homework was uh it didn't feel like like like oh man like I gota I gota I like >> you're kind of like it's kind of neat like I get to learn about this like I'm pretty curious. Okay. Like once I got once I got it started, I remember one of the biggest like uh homework assignments that they that they ask you to do is to go through this uh Shayhow course. Um and essentially it walks you through very basic like HTML how like the structure of HTML and you know different tags and some some CSS and stuff. Um, that was a long that was a long homework assignment and I kind of had I had to space it out because that was it was it took a couple days to get through. But every single time I did it, it was like like this is this is cool. Like I felt like it was exciting. It was really it was so it was I was looking forward to it. >> Yeah. It's a lot. But you were getting excited by by doing it though. >> Yes. Yes. Exactly. Um, I mean the homework later on when you got much more difficult, but it was still it was still really it it didn't it didn't like deter me. It wasn't like like you know like like oh man I got to do this and this and it it wasn't like a bore or a chore or anything like that. I was looking forward to it. Um, I was I did have to kind of I was on I was on this I was on a schedule like um I knew I had a I I could take about a year to kind of pursue this and like the way that Leon structures his classes. There's there's probably like 50 60 classes that you can go through plus homework that you know they assign to you and then you know eventually you kind of just um have to do like the homework turns into like different different stuff just like on GitHub and stuff. Uh but I knew if I if I dedicated a whole year to this I could do a a class a week and be finished by the end of the year. I I could I could learn full be a full stack web developer by the end of the year. And so that's essentially what I did. I I started with a a class the be beginning of the week and then set time aside for like homework and stuff. And then if I didn't if I didn't understand anything, I would try to make sure I had the time to either go back and review it or look up more stuff like about it so I could just >> fully grasp exactly what he was teaching. >> How much time would you say, and I'm not looking for like, you know, like give give me the the stopwatch readout, but if you had to estimate how much time on average you were spending a week for the year, right? So you you you you set this goal of like I'm going to spend a year on this because that's a time horizon that >> you're like I can I can do this on average like what would you say like a week look like for your time commitment into this? >> Uh well let's see. >> Or did it vary like a lot? Like I I actually don't know. I'm only The reason I'm asking this is so that >> I I really liked that you said a year time horizon, right? you're like, I'm going to dedicate myself to this for one year >> because the other side of this that I hear probably too often is like I got a couple weeks like what can I do in a couple weeks to get me to I'm going to be a professional developer and I'm like I don't know how to tell you this before my first job I was coding for like 10 years like before I got my first job so I don't know what you're planning to do in a couple weeks like um so you're saying one year is a target which means you probably went through this thought exercise of like how much time am I going to spend on this per week? So, I'm just curious like what that looked like for you. >> Well, I mean it would definitely depend on like the class that I was on because obviously the the earlier classes they're they're you know more beginner friendly um with just HTML and CSS stuff >> um you know it was harder. it was it was much easier to knock those things out um until you know you got farther in the course where you had you're learning um gosh I don't know uh objects in JavaScript and like how to how the how those work. Oh man, the first class I I I I watched when Leon was introducing JavaScript I that was probably the one time I was like oh no I don't know if I can do this this >> Yeah. Wait, what am I doing now? like, "Oh, maybe maybe it's not for me." Yeah. >> Well, I did. I was like, this this I like I just like that self-doubt was just like, can I am is this am I sure this is what this >> Yeah. Um, but Leon does such a great job and, you know, motivating even even in his like uh pre-recorded videos. He just knows like this is where people are going to struggle and they need this like extra bit of motivation like this. Just get through this. This is what you need to do. And honestly, if it wasn't for like those like like get these done just just keep pushing. Like I I I don't know if it was if it was my mind probably would have like won out and be like I don't I don't know. >> Guess it's not for me, right? like m I tried but what's next, right? Like it's I guess that's the end of the road. Yeah. Okay. >> Um but I I was very I was very determined. I knew that I enjoyed this this career path. Um so I was not about to give up on it that easily. And he after you after a while, you know, turns out he was right. Shocker. uh JavaScript became much more much more not not easy but you know I could understand how it worked and um that was just like this there's there's just this like a mental block to kind of get get over get past that to to figuring out how JavaScript worked. But now JavaScript and I we're friends, you know, we're we're we're good friends now. Um it was just a it was just a rough road getting there. >> Sure. Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, and I guess like let me see 100 does is pretty much uh where I am at the moment. You know, I take uh I take freelance clients when I can now thanks to thanks to his courses. Um, but I'm looking for like a full-time role and uh >> yeah, talk talk to me about the freelancing part. So this is I think that this is like a a fascinating thing that I don't think a lot of people a lot of people realize. Um so what I like to say because I've been in software development for a good few years now. Um and I've been programming for a long time. But if someone said freelancing, I would say look that story you were telling about selling and like being a teller and like I have to sell things. Guess who can't do that very well? Right? So, um, when it comes to like freelancing and that kind of thing, I like I like to tell people that that do it and they're like, "Hey, I'm still looking for my first job or I'm trying to switch roles and I want to get a full-time job." I'm like, "By the way, that thing that you're doing, I cannot do it at all." Um, and I got to stop saying I can't. I feel like >> maybe, but like I'm not good at it. That's for sure. So, um, I I just wanted to say that I think it's really awesome that you can do it. That's great. So, How like what does that look like for you like in terms of like getting clients like what type of work are you doing or or hoping to do? Well, I I I followed up on a lot of like how how um Leon kind of explains the the the way that he's found like is the most I don't want to say the best, but it it's a it's a it's a method that works is just like going on Google, searching for, you know, places that like local places that may or may not have a website. Is it a good website? you know, just like dial for dollars kind of. >> That's that's incredible because um like what you just described is like that's not that's not a high-tech fancy answer to doing it, >> but the way you described it, you're like, it's not the best. Like I don't I don't know what the best is, but that is a way that absolutely works, right? It absolutely will lead to some results. Is every phone call you make going to be a success? No. Um, but that's also the reason why I am scared to death to do it because if I had to go call someone, first of all, calling people, I don't even know how to do that now. Second of all, like now I'm going to be that person who feels like when you were saying, uh, as a teller, I have to try and sell things. I I have to call this person and try to tell them that I have something that they should pay money for. I'm like, uh, no, it's done before I even pick up the phone. Right? So, um, again, that's incredible. that that's a whole set of skills that that takes work, that takes time and investment, and you have to keep doing it. It needs reps. I don't put the reps into that. So, I'm terrible at it. Um, but yeah, so that's that's really cool. So, you end up uh looking for like local businesses, reaching out to them and saying like, "Hey, do you need a site built?" >> Yes. I mean, I'm very I'm I'm I'm fortunate in that my location has like a lot of like mom and pop shops, you know? It's not a big city. So, uh, you know, there's much more there's there's just a lot of lot more small small to mediumsized businesses to where I live. And it's very obvious, you know, if somebody if somebody needs a website. I've seen some pretty horrendous sites. Um, but like you can't tell them that. >> Sure. >> Um, yeah. I I had this uh uh this lady who wanted to start a photography a photography business. She I guess she had she'd had some experience. Um she had gotten paid before and uh that was like one of my very first uh actual projects projects with a client. Um, yeah, I got to build her like a little a little portfolio that she could show off to her clients and uh and get and get more clients. I think >> she's we're gonna we're gonna update it with some new photos, I think, sometime eventually. >> But but this is I mean like that's that's part like how you just described that's I mean that's the selling thing, right? It's it's really like hey look, I'm not just trying to take your money like you're trying to have a business be successful. That means you need >> you need to be able to pull in clients. You need somewhere to direct them. And so like you're in this position where you can tell them, "Let me make this for you so that I can help you." Right. And then >> Exactly. Yeah. There's a there's I'm I was actually surprised when I started like scouring Google Maps and just just I was really surprised by how many businesses didn't have a website. >> Yeah. like like I feel like that's like like like like business 101, you know, you want to have some kind of a central place for people to go to to check out what you do and and you know, learn more about it. It's seems it seems obvious to me, but I there's just just more opportunities to uh to reach out to them, I guess. >> Yeah. I think um I think that there's a lot of places especially um especially with older generations where they have started businesses, they've been running businesses and they're like it's just worked this way for forever. >> We've been around for forever so we've seen success this way without having to have a website. Um >> but the reality is it's kind of limiting. Um so I think that's super cool that you're able to do that. Um I want to come back to this question that I said that I had uh near the beginning. Um so now that you've described uh this interaction or you know where how you're able to kind of work for freelancing and and trying to work with customers. Um the one thing that you were talking about in your your role sort of operating you call them game booths. Is that what you were doing? Is that >> booths? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> So or game stands game booths. Um so when you were doing this you had to talk with people all day. Is that fair to say >> for I mean obviously days are busier than others but for the most part you know if somebody comes up to the booth yeah you're you want to interact with them you want that interaction to be a pleasant one so that they come back. >> So yes. >> Yeah. And and you enjoyed that part right like those interactions like >> Yeah. Okay. So the thing that I was curious about is like I think that a lot of people go into programming. A lot of people have this idea being like if I go into this role, it's going to be awesome because I don't have to work with people. >> Ah, you don't have to I don't have to talk to anybody. You can just be facing the computer screen and just live my life. >> My coding goggles on. It's just me and the keyboard and I am coding. But the reality is that is uh not true at all. And so I was really curious if you found that uh whether it was from that job experience or any of the other ones where you were working with other people, working in teams or just really having to you know converse with other people if you found that that was a helpful skill set to have now when you're trying to talk with potential clients or like working back and forth and trying to build out the things they're asking for. Yeah, I think um I think uh being like social has always been kind of difficult for me in general just because I was I was I grew up a homeschooler. I didn't talk to I didn't I was I lived in like a super remote area. There's not could hang out with like neighbors and stuff. So talking to new people was just kind of different and scary for the longest time. It just was it was a com it was a journey all in itself just getting to the point where I can't I can I can talk to a person you know online just to just have a conversation. >> Um me 10 years ago this this would have been like terrifying absolutely terrifying. Um but like it I think it it depends on the job as well because there were there would be some some jobs like the um uh as a supervisor at a at a theme park. I I enjoyed it and like the people there we were all we were all a team. We were all kind of kind of like I hesitate to use the word family but you know we all it was that kind of like mindset you know we were all on the same side. Um it was just it was much easier to you know to talk to people. Um but like in in roles where uh as like a teller it just was no nobody nobody tried to talk to me. I just it just felt like a like even if I tried to to conversate with somebody, >> they're not they're not really having >> it like I was kind of Yeah. Like I was I was kind of like like kind of like an outcast, you know? I was really really nerdy and I don't think that's like the environment that nerds hang out in. Um it was just really hard for me to connect with people es especially because I was also kind of labeled as this person who just cannot sell you know it was >> that certainly doesn't like I'm sure your outlook on trying to be able to converse with people like that was not helping anything right like that's why I I mentioned the psychological safety thing because um for for folks that are working in teams or they're you might maybe they're in an internship or they're new to a team where they're junior and they're put into these environments. Like if you have an environment where there isn't psychological safety and you're like, I can't even ask questions cuz people make me feel like I'm an idiot. >> Um >> you're like you will not grow. You will be stagnant. You're going to probably hate showing up. And then the problem is that if you think that that's normal, then you're like, I guess I'm screwed and this is what I have to do. And some people just kind of stick around in that cuz they think that that is normal. It's not supposed to be normal. I don't have stats to say whether or not that's statistically normal, but it's not right. It's not right. So, for anyone listening or watching, if you're finding yourself in an environment like that, it's not normal. And there's lots of different things you can do. One of which is unfortunately uh to leave. Um but, you know, I think that there's directions you can kind of push into try changing that. But it's not it's not simple. And unfortunately, if you have people in sort of leadership um over the team or your manager, that kind of thing, if they're sort of the one that's that's driving that, that can make it really challenging, but it's not normal. Um so, yeah, the whole the whole uh industry is not supposed to be like that. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. So, un I'm sorry to hear that you had to go through something like that. Uh you know, even outside of software development, but that's really really crappy. But yeah, I guess the I was I was really curious about that because I you know I I often say to people that in software development of course we have all these technical skills there's you know languages we have like programming languages we have to learn tech stacks >> all the stuff going on and at the end of the day um those are all things that I feel like you spend time on them you will learn them. >> Yeah. um they they take time, but the the the peopleing part is I think something that a lot of people ignore and I try to remind them like you will likely be working in teams. Um some people uh go their whole career and they're not working directly with customers but other people like in your case, you're talking directly to customers and potential customers. Being able to people effectively is incredibly important. So I just like reminding people like don't ignore like what we call soft skills because >> they will help. >> Very important. Yes. >> Awesome. So and then I guess to wrap up I was curious so for the stuff that you're doing at 100 devs like how has that evolved for you in the time that you've been there now in terms of like the material and stuff that you're kind of going through? Oh. Uh, evolved as in as in >> I guess. Yeah, I guess I'm curious like I know obviously in the very beginning it's going to be like you were saying like very simple. Um, in terms of this cuz I I have your LinkedIn pulled up on the side. So I was I was trying to get like a time horizon, but um for 100 devs it says a couple years now that you've been that you've been doing that. So >> the in terms of like the the complexity or the different types of things that you're getting to see. Could can you elaborate on some of the I don't know like again I'm just reading a couple things off like I see React I see uh Tailwind I see like like how has that looked for you? Are you building stuff with like other people? Is it like is it solo stuff that you're doing on the side to go learn? Like I just kind of curious what that looks like in general >> at the moment. I mean I' I've been doing just like solo stuff. Um so I find I finished the the cohort last year. I I that's when that's when that's when I uh I had my my strict regimen to a class a week and then homework afterwards. Um >> um >> and you did it, right? You >> I did it. I went through the whole thing and I stuck to my I had like one or two sick weeks where I was like I can't I cannot I just my head hurts. >> You're human. It's allowed. Yeah, that's fine. >> It happens. You know, you got to give yourself some grace. Um but uh that was last year and I finished like they have this this 100 hour project which is like this big um big thing that they encourage you to uh work on near closer to the end of the uh the cohort. And so I still had to I still had to kind of start and finish it. I took a lot of time to really think about what I wanted to build. And to me, to me, um, it was important to, uh, to kind of build this like vision board out because as someone who really struggled to figure out what I wanted to do for the long for years, years, so many years, just like trying different things. And I'm super grateful for the experience. Like, I know I know what I like. I know what, you know, I' I've gotten to where I am because of all of that. Um, but like I really wanted my my like big project at the end of this cohort to be something that other people can kind of like uh use to help figure out what they want to do for themselves. And I I found that doing like a visual manifestation. I >> um that helped me a lot to kind of figure out what goals I need to be setting for, you know, to eventually get to where I want to be, >> if that makes sense. So >> that's what that was my my big final uh project and I worked on it earlier this year I think and then the rest of like this year has been doing a lot of like you know coffee chats like this and um kind of practicing my my social skills um because I had been doing I had been doing you know technical stuff for a whole year. I was finally I was finally trying to jump into like the pre the people part of the tech industry. >> Right. Well, and so I I wanted to mentioned too because the it's uh I I should I should say I'm extremely introverted. So as you're talking about like uh you know uh social interactions and stuff I I should have mentioned earlier, but by the way like I'm super introverted. uh for me to to go on camera to do like YouTube videos and stuff like that kind of I have to turn on like some type of extrovert side of me. >> Same thing when I'm managing teams like if I get into one-on- ones with people um which you know love the teams I work with but it's a lot of energy for me because I'm introverted but I have to find ways to to turn that on. Um, but I had reached out to you because you were at uh commit your code this year, right? So, I was going to say like the fact that you're talking about, you know, uh, you know, trying to to be more social and try to engage and stuff like that. You were at a conference that was for tech. That's awesome. >> It was probably the It was the biggest convent uh conference I've ever been to. Like, there's not a whole lot of um big meetups like that where I live. maybe like there's probably 10 people at a at a meetup if I was to go to somewhere if I was to drive an hour into a city and find one. >> But to go from that to, you know, 800 plus people at a conference, it was just that was >> How did you find it? Would you recommend doing that sort of thing for to other people? Okay, >> absolutely. Absolutely. Um, I mean, first of all, I I finally had the chance to meet with people that I had I I'd known from coffee chats like you doing them online from earlier that year. And so meeting people that I've seen online in person, it was just kind of surreal and it was absolutely amazing getting to hang out with them and meet a lot of new developers who, you know, they didn't they didn't know they didn't know me. I'm just this I'm just this blonde this little blonde girl from from Idaho. Like where did I come from? So, a lot of lot of new people, you know, uh I got to meet which was uh just super super fun. >> Awesome. >> Um I think it was an amazing experience. I really if if if Danny does decide to do another one next year, I think it would be amazing to go. >> Awesome. And no, I I I appreciate that because I I had a couple of people that had reached out before that conference and they were asking questions like, "Hey, like I don't know like is it not not necessarily specifically for that one. There was a couple people that reached out specifically for it, but they were saying like is it actually worth it for me to do something like this? Like to go in person? Like I don't really know how to network. I don't like I don't know what to do when I go." I'm like, I get it because like I'm so introverted that like when I show up I'm kind of like, well, I'm here. Like, where's the corner for me to go hide in? Um, but I I'm glad that, you know, it's on camera. It's recorded. You're saying like, "Hey, like I'm trying to be more social and I had to, you know, I went to this event and it was really good and you would recommend it." Um, that's awesome. So, I kind of that's great evidence that we can use for other people to say, "Hey, look, if you're trying to do this type of thing, like go to these types of events." >> Yes. Yes. I mean, I've never been to a a another conference that big, but like this one is so welcoming and and just front. Everybody there is just super chill. If it was your very first conference, I highly recommend just >> just going at as your first if you like that was my first one. So, I I totally recommend it. >> No, that's super cool. And so, thank you for sharing that. And Samantha, thank you for sharing all of your your career journey so far. I think that's super cool. I love doing these types of chats because I think that it's really important for people to see that like like I have some people that come on and they're like, "Hey, look, I was born with a keyboard in my hands and like I know I'm going to be a programmer. I don't know what I'm going to build yet, but I'm going to be programming stuff." And other people that are like I had like I didn't even care about computers or anything until I was like 30, until I was 40. like like there's so many different paths and I think that a lot of the time we see one whatever is in the media whatever is kind of the thing that's propagated is like we see that path and some people are like I'm not I don't know if that's for me so does that mean I'm not cut out for tech >> and the answer is like that has nothing to do with it so I wanted to say thank you again for sharing all of that I think that's awesome I think there's a lot for >> for people to take away from that And uh I guess the final thing that I'd love to ask of you is if people wanted to reach out to you, like where can people find you? >> Oh jeez. I mean I'm I'm on I'm on LinkedIn, Samantha Lopez on LinkedIn. I do not have much social media. I don't have an Instagram. I don't have a Facebook. I don't have a Twitter, which makes networking a little more difficult. >> Yeah, you got to get on that. Yeah, >> I know. Um part of me is like I I like I like the peace and quiet. I don't I don't social media. Don't blame you as a content creator. I'm like I want to turn it all over. >> You get it. You totally. Yeah. But LinkedIn for sure if you want to follow me on GitHub as well. You know, never hurts to have a follower on there. >> I will I will get uh I'll find it after. I have your LinkedIn and I will get your GitHub and I'll put them in the description and stuff so people can check that out. >> Thank you. >> Do you have your own website as well? >> Like a portfolio? >> Yeah. Like if people wanted to reach out to you to have a website built. Yes, I do. There's uh I think it's just Samantha Samantha Lopezdev.netifi.app. The the the links in like my um you can find it everywhere. It's on my LinkedIn. It's in my So, it's you could um there it's there. >> I'll get it. That's perfect. That's awesome because I wanted to make sure if people are watching this and they're like, "Hey, well, I need a website built. Let's get the link." So, >> hit me up. >> I will absolutely add that. So, Samantha, thanks again. Maybe one final question. I'm going to put you on the spot. Any parting words of wisdom that you want to give to all of the other aspiring developers? >> Um, >> if you don't have anything that's >> I I actually do. You know, I'm I I'm a big gamer. So, um, one of the games that I was playing uh in my early years was Final Fantasy 10. >> And Okay. Um, one of the characters in there, he's his name is Kimari Rono, and he's a a a man of few words, but one of his lines that I've kept with me throughout the years is only those who try will become. So I've been carrying that that line with me for this entire this entire journey of like learning thing this this constant like cycle of you're there's just always something new to learn. You know only those who try are going to become you know if you just give up like you're you're obviously you're never going to reach to where you want to go you know you always have to try no m like try >> that's awesome I don't I don't know what I was expecting but that is I think that definitely beats the expectation I had for parting words of wisdom I love that that's great >> thank you >> um again thank you so much I will add the links in and I really appreciate your time thank you >> thank you so much Nick, >> of course.