Construction, Coding, and Work Life Balance - Jamon's Journey in Software Development

In this video interview, I sat down with Jamon Homegrren and we got to talk about his career journey as well as building a software development company. What I thought was really cool to hear from him was his perspective on building trust in other people to end up forming a partnership with them as well as a discussion on ADHD. And I thought that that in particular was quite eye opening for myself. And I think that there's probably a lot of you that can benefit from hearing that different perspective. So I think that you're really going to enjoy this one. I certainly did. And so sit back, enjoy, and I'll see you next time. >> Jamon, if you don't mind kicking us off uh a little bit of career journey, you can kind of start as early as you'd like. I know you sent over some notes, and I appreciate that, but I figured like if you want to tell your story, um from wherever you'd like to, that'd be awesome. >> Yeah, totally. Uh, so I started like I grew up rurally and my dad had a a excavation company and so for his small business it was just him, you know, and and he needed some some way to like do the books and so he this was like uh I grew up in the 80s and the '9s so uh you know like personal computing was just starting and he finally went and bought like a 286 computer which I actually have in the corner here the the original 28 86 doesn't work anymore. Uh it went through a houseire but uh but it I do have the case. So anyway uh I was fascinated by it. This I was probably 10 11 years old something like that. And um so early 90s MS DOS uh you know learning the commands. I remember my dad teaching me, you know, DOSS commands >> nice, >> which he had just learned, of course, and CD backslash and things like that. And um and I and I was really curious like how cuz the the company or the computer store that that put it together for us, I think I think my dad paid like $2,300 or something for this computer back in 1992. and which is a insane amount of money, you know, when you think about it, but >> uh he Yeah. So, he had this computer and um and there was like a menu. So, like when you first booted it up, it would like show you a menu and I was like, "How does this menu work?" >> And I noticed that it was running cuz you could see the commands as it was kind of scrolling by. >> It was running like menu.bat and I was like, "What is that?" And so I somehow figured out how to get in and look at that file and I saw like the syntax of like, >> you know, it was echoing out all these different, you know, things for the menu. And then uh and then they just had like 1.bat, 2.bat, 3.bat were the kind of the the different things and like going to the games directory folder, whatever. >> So I was just trying to figure all this stuff out as a kid and I just got fascinated by it. It was just like immediately like this is cool. It's like a common thing where like a lot of people that get into software and stuff are just like super curious, right? It's like there's something that they encounter and they're like, I need to I need to know more about whatever this is and how it works. Like I don't know what it is, but something's drawing me to it. >> Yeah, absolutely. And that was definitely me. And uh my dad actually was pretty like disappointed with the computer because it wouldn't run QuickBooks. like he had Quicken and he tried to do what he could with Quickn like a DOSs version of each of these, right? >> I'm trying to imagine that, by the way, cuz like I I also used like my initial computer use would have been DOSs as well, but it would have been like >> I don't know like >> Duke Nukem 3D and like Quake and Yeah. Like just Yeah, I don't know. >> Totally. Uh yeah, absolutely. And we had games on our computer. My mom and dad wouldn't let me have too violent of games, but I had some games on there, including a helicopter game, which kind of plays into one of my side side quests I have going on. >> Um, which I loved. Uh, but yeah, I played a lot of games on it as well. And then my dad went and got another computer a couple years later, a 486, and that one had Q Basic on it, which was a really big deal for me. And I had at at school this math teacher had like noticed I was interested in computers and gave me a basic book. And so I'd read the basic book and I tried to put some stuff into like uh Apple 2e that we had there in the computer labs Commodore 64 and uh sometimes would get them to work a lot of times you know Mad Libs like you put in the the words. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I so you do like verb or you know the name of an animal or whatever and then it prints out a funny statement at the end and that was a good way to kind of learn how to do variables and you know printing on the screen getting input. It was like a really really good way to to to learn and so I had that and uh that kind of background. So when I got QBasic I did it you know I was like oh now I can do this anytime that my mom lets me use the computer and so that's just all I did you know for a long time. I eventually, you know, discovered basketball and some other interests, but it was it was very much like coding all the time whenever I could. I probably made 200 little games and some of them were pretty complicated. >> Wow. >> Yeah. Yeah. A lot. I mean, it was the computer was just jammed with my stuff. And >> uh my mom would kick me out, you know, like go play outside, whatever. She knew that was good for me. Um but, you know, I kept kept doing that. But I I didn't have any I didn't really know I knew one programmer uh and he was really smart like super super like I don't know the guy had memorized pi to the 500th digit and I kind of thought that that's what a programmer was like someone who could do all this stuff >> right >> and so >> I feel that's like a common like a just a common belief that >> if you want to be in software development like it's going to be math and uh you know you're you're referencing someone who's memorized digits which is I Is that arguably math? I don't know if that's necessarily math. It's pi, sure, and it's numbers. But >> I think a lot of people have this, you know, this idea in their mind that if you're getting into programming, software development, you must >> just be all in on math as well. >> Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And and so that's what I thought, but I still I it was kind of in the back of my mind. And >> um I worked odd jobs, mowing lawns, different things like that. But yeah, I mean fast forward, I I went to uh a community college uh and I went for some sort of computer information systems something or other. I only went for one semester and I was really there to just uh play basketball and I eventually actually got cut from the team. So I wasn't I wasn't good enough to play basketball. Okay. >> Uh and uh it was a fun experiment or experience though and so uh I got cut from the team. I I was enjoying the classes. I had a Linux class uh you know like this was 200 yeah 2000 year 2000 and um then uh then I went into construction. I you know just kind of quit school and I was working out in the the rain framing homes you know you know building stuff. Um, and eventually >> was software development like or like at least dabbling like at this time were you still like it was still an interest but not like a a career kind of thing at this point? >> Yeah, totally. I was still doing well I'd switched from Qbasic finally to like other things. I was doing I think Game Maker or something like that, like early versions of that. And then uh one of my dad's friends, so my dad sold his business, became a full-time pastor. Uh he had been like a part-time pastor, Lutheran pastor. And he took over a church. And in that in that church, there were a bunch of business owners, a lot of construction. and um they needed like little things done and they knew that I knew computers and programming stuff and they'd be like, "Hey, can you >> can you make this thing that will like track, you know, my machines where they go and and stuff and I would build in like Microsoft Access and VBA and they'd pay me a little of nothing, but I just thought it was like awesome, you know, cuz I got to code and got paid for it and didn't have to be out in the rain." And uh yeah, so then I I was working for a home builder for a while and then I I decided I wanted to go on my own when I was 23 and uh and I figured well I could like make websites and I also knew home design by that point cuz I'd been doing home design. So I was kind of doing both at the same time. >> That was 2005. And of course 3 years later, 2 years later, 3 years later, the housing crisis happens here in the states and uh we're like there's no home design to be done, you know, and the company I had worked for before was laying out people off >> and uh you know, a lot of home builders were going out of business and I'm like, well, I guess the website thing is all I got here. And it never really occurred to me to try to go get a job um you know, coding because like what I'm like building websites in PHP. this isn't like real coding, you know, this is just kind of doing like stuff on the side. That's what I thought at the time. >> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But yeah, that's kind of how I started it. And then uh but all those businesses that I knew for my dad's church, they in 2005 and a little before that and everything, they started being like, I should probably get a website. Like, you know, Yellow Pages isn't really doing it anymore. And so that's where I started like just building a ton of PHP websites. And that was um that was a lot of fun. Uh and in 2009 then I started hiring people because I had enough work that I could and I needed to do more than just websites. It was like web apps and things like that. >> And out of curiosity like at that you're saying at that point you're hiring people >> and you had also said that you know your perception of like not going out to like get a job doing it is cuz it didn't really seem like it was like I don't know like like real programming work or something. But >> yeah, >> something must have changed in between there where you're like, "Wait a second, like I'm going to be hiring people to do this." So like, >> was there a point where you kind of realize that for yourself or what? >> Yeah, that's that's a great question, Nick. I I I think that it was when I got this project that was like a back office system for a cabinet. It was a cabinet like sales uh let's see here like a like a I guess a they had like this showroom and they didn't make the cabinets but they sold them I guess a retail place and so you'd go there and you'd like pick out what you wanted and they needed like a back like a back office system. Um, this is probably 2007 or eight, so like a few years into what I was doing. And by that time, all of my, you know, my home design work had dried up. And so I was just full-time doing that. And I was like, "Oh, this is like a real system. This is like a big deal. I have to do like databases and all this other stuff." And I had done some database work um like just for, you know, content uh you know, like storing content for websites and whatnot. um and kind of built some of that stuff up and I built something for myself, you know, to kind of track invoices and things like that. And then yeah, I just started building the system. I'm like, this is a lot of work. There's a whole bunch here. They still to this day use the system I built. Like >> it's it's kind of fun. Uh I ended up building a system similar to it for the manufacturer who's also locally local and they built my cabinets in this house and they were coming over to do some warranty work. This was like years and years later. Guy had an iPad and I look at the iPad and it's running the system that I that I built and I'm like, I recognize that thing. Uh, and he's like, yeah, we love it. It's great. So, that was pretty cool. >> That's awesome. >> Yeah. So, that was that was fun. Um, and then yeah, it was like at that at that point I'm like, okay, this is actually legit. There's like this is powering like small businesses and and stuff like that. And we're doing a whole bunch of technologies. Um, but then I got in, you know, I I got a smartphone. Um, it was really when I actually got an iPad that I started getting interested in making some apps for it. Um, and then a few people asked me like, "Could you make an app for me?" And then I I built um I built a couple apps. I used like Phone Gap. You did you ever use Phone Gap back in the day? >> No. No. I don't think I've heard of Phone Gap. No. It's it's like uh so like Cordova, Ionic, um what's the Yeah, those are kind of like successors of of Phone Gap. Uh it was basically just a web view, kind of a thin wrapper web view. And yeah, >> it just wasn't a very good experience back then. And uh still isn't that great to this day. There's some things that are a little better. So I wanted to like, okay, well, let's I'll code it like in native. And um did some native coding for a while. Uh and then uh 2015 I had met my business partners the year before at a conference. Uh ended up merging our companies together because that's a whole story that I can go into if you want but it's uh basically uh when we did that we were like okay >> uh what tech do we want to like focus on? And uh my business partner found React Native that had started in 2015. And so that's what we've been doing ever since. And uh I I was up to about 14 people at that point. I had hired a bunch of people. you know, but it was like being a, you know, solo owner and uh having a lot of like junior level people at that point. >> Okay. Yeah. >> It was just way too stressful. Like just too much going on. Uh I was having to do wear too many hats. And so by merging with the other >> with the 14 people that you'd brought on, you said like Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. Cuz some of them I had one guy that was good at like helping with business development and things like that, but um most people were pretty junior. Um, and so I was just kind of running around like fixing people's code and teaching them and stuff like that. And that was a lot. And so merging with this other company allowed me to bring in like they had I think around 10 um like pretty experienced developers and we just matched them up and said okay, you know, and then I I started doing different things and uh uh have two business partners now. And that's been the last 10 years and that's been great. Uh it really allowed me to kind of not be quite so stressed. But it I kind of backed into all of this. Like I didn't really, you know, it wasn't really a plan originally. I I just kept going from one thing to the next. Like, okay, well, I can go into an office and not not be working in in the rain. And then, hey, you know, um uh maybe I can make websites cuz I don't have any home design work and all that stuff. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, and that's I think a that transition going from like I have I've not done this for like a business I own or anything. Um, so kind of uh kind of interested to hear a little bit more but on this on the shift from being like >> I understand this idea of wearing a lot of hats, right? And especially if you're some of those hats or uh the hats that you have to wear end up being a lot of >> what I don't mean this in a condescending way and I don't know a way that's going to make it sound better, but when you feel like you're kind of picking up pieces of other people like you're you're helping out, right? And you're you're kind of acknowledging these people are more junior >> and it's expected, right? if they're more junior, they're going to have to learn. There's going to be some things you have to help out with. But if you're spending a lot of time doing that, >> even I feel like even if that's something that you do enjoy, there's probably a lot of parts of the business where you're like, I just simply do not have time for that. Um, and like the things that you're seeing like the business needs more attention here or over here and like >> I can't do that. So, um, yeah, maybe if you don't mind and there's parts of that story you want to share about kind of like joining up with another like business. I think that'd be really cool to hear about. >> Yeah, absolutely. Uh, so I put in a lot of late nights, like really late nights. Um, I have I I'd gotten married at 21. I was almost 22, so pretty young. And, uh, we we have four kids. And, uh, so, you know, over the years, this was like our first kid was born in 2005. and our last one in 2013. So throughout that whole like like my son was like 6 months old when I started the business and then throughout that whole time I'm like working late in the spare bedroom and then eventually like working late at the office that I had the little office that I had rented um from the previous home builder that I had worked at. >> And so it was it was like I was just burning the candle on both ends. I was putting in I kind of let my health go. I wasn't, you know, like exercising, eating right, all those things. I was just putting everything I had into the business. And I I I got into it cuz I, you know, partially because I wanted to run my own business, but also because I liked coding and I wanted to do more of it. And I was finding myself like coding for eight hours, but then doing all the other stuff for another 6 hours. And it was just too much. And it was also because I didn't really understand the value of like bringing in people that I could trust to do things. And that was that was a hard lesson for me to learn for some reason. I was always >> I feel like that was like maybe the the one of the bigger barriers was like how do I trust someone like I have this thing and how do I trust someone else or other people? >> Yeah. >> Sort of the same involvement. >> Yeah, totally. And part of it was like me being like I guess just just sort of a little intimidated by the thought of hiring someone at like a high salary that I now have to pay. You know, I'd always kind of brought in junior juniors at junior levels and stuff. And um and that was that was a a pretty big like, okay, how do I make this work? You know, and and a lot of it was just me just sort of through force of will trying to make it happen, learning everything, like learning accounting. And it's like what what why was I bothering with any of that stuff? It was nice later cuz I had that that basis. I I you know I learned marketing, I learned sales, I learned all these other things. Um but at the end of the day, it was just far too much for me and I did a lot of things poorly is what happened. And I think that was that was really the the reason I started kind of like thinking I got to do something different. Do you feel like in hindsight, because I think that's a super interesting observation where you're like, man, I'm doing all these things. I'm like, I don't really have to be I don't have to be the one doing these things, but do you feel like in hindsight if you had a time machine and you had to repeat the the same, you know, thing again? Um, >> do you think that that was actually a very helpful thing that you spent some time on it? Like, would you have done it the same way in hindsight or would you be like, "No, right away I would, you know, go get someone else to do it." like what does how does that change for you? >> That that's a fascinating kind of look back and and I would say that it sort of if you compartmentalize it there are things that absolutely help me today. I have instincts for things that most business owners would not have because they didn't maybe do that. They wouldn't have, >> you know, actually sat down for um for five years in a row and done a monthly budget every single month, you know, like by hand. I, you know, you're not just getting a report. Like I had to build it. I had to enter every receipt. I had to do everything. Uh my wife ended up helping me uh some with that too, but she was busy with four kids. Like there was, you know, plenty to do there. And um so the that comes back to would I do it again? No way. Like no way. I would do it very differently. And it was primarily because I wasn't present for my wife. I wasn't there for my wife and my kids in the early days, you know? >> So it's not about doing it more optimally for your the business if you're to reflect on it. It's actually for the other parts of life. >> That's right. >> Very interesting. >> Yeah, I would have I would have kept up up on my health. You know, I'm 40 I'm almost 44 now. And uh turns out when you're 24 and 34, it's easier to keep up on your health. Uh and now I got to like work harder at it. Um and if I just kept on it the whole time, I would have been better off. And then yeah, just been there for my for my kids, especially my older kids. um you know cuz for the last 10 years I've been working from home and I've been more present and I haven't been as stressed uh which has been really nice but it was like a late lesson you know 10 years later um but at the same time I can't just say oh there was nothing valuable that came out of that obviously there was there was there was a lot that came out of that that was good and I was still coding and I was still like the senior developer and we were doing PHP originally we did PHP pretty much the whole time but we also added uh Ruby on Rails um a lot of Ruby on Rails um and a lot of different JavaScript frameworks. We were doing Ember when I ended uh that that part that chapter and um lots of different uh yeah I mean all kinds of things and I learned a lot doing that. I always had a fascination with that stuff. You know, learning is just my happy place. I love it. It's uncomfortable but it's fun. Um and so yeah, there were a lot of really good parts about it and then there are parts I look back and say, "Yeah, that wasn't worth it." And I was sacrificing in ways that I didn't really even understand I was sacrificing. >> Yeah, that's uh that's really interesting. I I guess I I'm not I'm not surprised now that you said it, but I think uh initially a little surprised because like I didn't even think about the fact that >> yeah, the part that you're >> probably going to, you know, want to optimize is the other part of your life outside of work. I was sort of expecting like a a business focus on it. So yeah, thank you for sharing that. And just >> Oh, go ahead. Yeah. No, I I just that that made me think like there there are business parts of it that I would do differently, too. And and and I could have certainly gotten past a lot of things much quicker. I could have brought in someone who could do a lot a lot of the other parts. I could have probably brought in a business partner. That's a little risky, of course. Um but I certainly could have brought in I could just have hired someone to do a lot of those other things and entrusted them to do them well. And then >> Do you think that you could have trusted them though? like and and I don't mean that like to challenge you, but it's a curiosity thing, right? Like do you think that going through some of those things understanding them better >> like would allow you to trust people more easily? Like I don't know. >> Yeah, that's a good question. I It's a really hard question to answer at this point because I know kind of what I would do now, but back then um I didn't know what I didn't know and so it was really hard to kind of uh let go of things. I think the other thing is I would have focused more on training my developers. Um I would I didn't have as much patience back then and I would uh I would show them how to do something and then if they didn't pick it up right away then I just be like well I'll just do it. And that was like terrible. That was a very dumb way to go and it held them back is what happened. >> Yeah. Yeah, that's a like it's a super interesting learning because you said that you had up to 14 people. I don't I'm assuming most of them if not all were developers. >> I had two designers um and I had uh a project manager but everybody else was a developer. Yeah. >> Yeah. So significant portion, right? And I think >> one of the like and and sorry I I believe if I understand your story correctly that so you've not been employed by like a software development company aside from the the one that you run, right? >> Yeah, that's right. >> Yeah. So like my experience is is the opposite end of that and like one of the the really interesting learnings that um >> like I started managing teams like really early in my career not because I would love to tell you it's because I'm so good but it's like no it's just literally that had to happen at a startup. Um, >> but I I think >> one of the interesting things was like like I made this mistake a lot and then trying to coach other people on this is like >> a lot of us I think have a habit of like we're trying to do our best to help. And so we see other people either they're making mistakes or they're junior like you know they're learning. It's totally normal and expected, but how we decide to help is like, well, let me show you. Like, I will do it. And then the next time they don't get it or whatever, you're like, okay, like, yeah, give me the mouse and the keyboard. Like, I'll do it. >> And then you start to keep doing this. And what happens is you end up accidentally training people that they can get you to do it. And it's not malicious, right? They're not I'm not going to do anything. This guy will do it. >> But they learn that. And then you also get into the spot where you're like, why the heck am I doing so much stuff? I'm like, I'm drowning under all of this stuff I have to do. >> Yeah, I would get, you're exactly right. And I I would get frustrated with them, which was totally not like reasonable at all, but I'd be like, I got all this other stuff to do and you're saying, I this can't be done and I can fix it and I go in and I fix it in 5 minutes. And I I started like, you know, making this joke about like if they would ask for help, I'd be like, 5 minutes, I'll have it done. And usually that was true. Like I would have it done in less than 5 minutes. But that was arrogance. I look back and would have changed a lot of things. Uh it was arrogance and it was also exposing my own failure. And one thing that Todd, who's my Todd Worth, who's my um co-founder, uh one of my two business partners, one of the things he said was if you if you go if when when someone who's working for you um can't do something, you go and do it for them, what you're saying is that you're not good at your job, so you're going to go do theirs. >> And I that that I was just like that. Yeah, that that kind of hits a little bit close to home there. Good framing because it makes you think about it differently. Right. >> Exactly. Cuz really the question should have been not can I can I get it done in 5 minutes. The question should have been uh how can I get them to the point where where they can do it in 5 minutes or 10 minutes. It doesn't have to be 5 minutes but get it done. >> And um >> and so yeah that was that was part of it. And also just sort of hiring cuz I started you know hiring friends and family and stuff and um and that's always hard to do because you're not necessarily getting someone passionate about it. uh you're getting someone who is looking for a job. And uh as time went on then I I did a crew of people that were really good. Some of them are still with me going way back. The very first person I ever hired is still with me. Like he still works for us. Yeah. Uh way back in the day, 2009, I guess. Yeah. So um and and so that's that's uh so there's a lot of like good and and also a lot of stuff I I definitely reflect on and and I and I feel like um those days that I it it gave me a lot of instincts uh that some of which are not good but a lot of them are good. Like I can kind of sniff out like there's a problem because for a long time there's just nobody to pass the buck to. I just if if I didn't make it happen literally like I wasn't bringing a paycheck home and I didn't have a lot of options on that side. I had four kids and a mortgage. >> Yeah. Like sort of the the looking at the risk is like it's probably wildly uncomfortable, highly stressful. Yeah. >> Yeah. Absolutely. And I guess partly I have a little bit of like um I don't know what what the right word is, but just sort of unrealis unrealistic uh optimism around some of the stuff like oh yeah, I'll figure it out and I you know I'll I'll just get it done and I'll do it through force of will. But there were a few times where there was like well not more than a few times where I'm like sinking you know I'm I'm like doing my budget and I'm like there's not much money here and I'm not doing the right things. um toward the end of it, I would say 2013, 2014, 2015, like the you know, the first seven years were really tough, but then it like started getting better. Um and by 2015, things were better, but the stress level was still really high. And I told my wife like if something I remember telling her specifically the exact I can picture in my mind. I was like it was like end of 2014 and I was like and we we had just had a big client drop out just like in one day or yeah, basically a day. They said, "Shut everything down. Send back any money you haven't like spent, you know, cuz we were doing like a deposit system." And uh and I'm like, "That's like half my team. Like, I got to try to like put put them on something." I was so stressed and I was like I told Kyra, my wife, I was like, "If if something doesn't change next year, then I'm hanging it up. Like, this is just too much." >> And that's where I had already met my eventual co-founders. And uh that's when we were starting to chat a lot, especially me and Todd. I got to know Gant a you know quite a bit later um a lot a lot better. But uh but Todd and I really hit it off and I was kind of venting to him about a lot of this stuff and uh and he had his own issues like with his company like he had all senior level people so he didn't have to do anything with them. They were great, but they were expensive and it was hard to like the business model didn't work as well. And he was doing consulting, mobile consulting, and we were doing a lot of the same tech. And um I'm like, well, I have a bunch of juniors and and he and he and I just started, you know, going back and forth. Yeah, something might be here. And uh we eventually decided to merge uh our companies and and we did that. Uh as of last month, it was 10 years ago. >> That's amazing. Did you find that um like it sounds like you you were kind of forming this relationship, this friendship like for a little while and I'm assuming like did that really help in kind of building the trust and going like I see how this person operates things. So you you reach a point where you're like >> wait a second like this could be something cuz otherwise I'm assuming the trust level is just really difficult to try and get to. >> Absolutely. And if you ever meet Todd um he's kind of a recluse. He doesn't really come out of his cave, whatever. But he is the type of person that like if you start getting to know him, you'll get to know him very deeply very quickly. He's he's someone who um who is like intensely interested in you and wants to kind of like talk about stuff. And it was really good for me to kind of have someone to and he's 10 years older than me. He'd run businesses before and he had some ideas around some of the stuff that you know just like experience and stuff. And um but I I didn't want to do it if he wasn't going to treat my team as well as I did. And I quickly got based on, you know, talking to the people that worked with him cuz I knew some of them through the conference and whatnot >> and and then just seeing how like his philosophy and everything that if anything, he's probably going to treat my team better than I do. You know, he's he's great. And uh and that was really what and we also kind of ran our companies kind of like almost like we were already merged for several months like making decisions together and stuff but still keeping separate books and stuff >> and just to kind of see if it would work. Um >> almost like a I don't want to call it a trial period but at least there was >> we called it dating. >> Okay. >> We called it dating. It was kind of like dating. Um, and in a lot of ways it's like, yeah, that's kind of what's happening cuz once you're in a partnership, you're going through so much together that it people say it's like a marriage and there's aspects that are uh similar where you're like, yeah, I mean, kind of tied to the hip with this person and, you know, we got to go through got to go through whatever whatever comes. Um, but yeah, it that was kind of the big thing. Um, and it it went like the merger went way smoother than it should have. like it just like it was seamless. It like went together. We started doing things um you know as a the three of us. There was an original co-founder Ken who was part of that uh but we eventually bought him out uh he didn't want to be a business owner. Um and so he ended up uh we ended up buying him out. Um but Gant Todd and I are >> are the team now uh the ownership team and we're up to 30 31ish people something like that. >> Uh we've decided not to like get too big. We we kind of like the small feel of >> Yeah. So that's like a conscious decision to >> there's a call it like a sweet spot where like you feel like you're >> oh I don't even know if I want to use the word agile but like nimble enough where you can >> Yeah. Because partly like we only do one technology now like React Native. And if React Native were to nose dive, it's doing great now, but like if it were to ever have a problem, then you know we have to be able to like switch switch horses midstream type of thing. And then also we just like we last week we just had our yearly get together with the whole team. We went to Austin. It was our 10th and um it was like I know everybody at the company, you know, at this size. There's a certain size. I've talked to some of the people who own businesses that are similar to ours, but they're like 100, 150 people, stuff like that. It's like, yeah, they they've never talked to some people at their company ever. And I bug people at our company all the time. like, you know, with 30 people, I can't like have eight hour conversations with everybody, but I but I I interact with people like all the time. And so I feel like I know people really well and I just we're really optimizing our company to be that. >> Um and and so that was big. But one thing that I did lose uh 10 years ago was I was going from like doing all the like senior level architect like highle programming to then I switched to like operations and sales and then just more sales and legal and I wasn't coding anymore like there were these >> what does that feel like for you then right like what what does that do to your outlook on things? Yeah. Yeah. That was really weird. And at first it was like the challenge of just doing the business part, the smaller slice of the business part was good. Um, and >> more focus like you feel like >> the work that you do has >> more direct like impact for the time you're putting into it kind of thing. >> Yeah, exactly. And I'm and I can also be done at 8 hours, you know, which was really nice. And uh but what was happening was everybody was learning React Native and kind of like getting good at that. And we had all these like senior level people coming in from the infinite red the original Infinite Red side. Um and and my team was getting up to speed on it and they're asking if they asked me I wouldn't know you know cuz I had never done that technology. It was a brand new technology for the brand new company. And so uh so they'd go ask you know Gant and they'd ask Steve and they'd ask these other like Mark and all these guys and so um so they all kind of learn together and uh and I was like I'm kind of left behind in this stuff. Um and you know I know kind of like iOS native so I could still be useful but it was it was a really weird thing. And then over time I started realizing I miss coding but I don't even know you know I can do some open source and so I did some of that but it was just like I wasn't in that pipeline at all. And when Ken left then I switched to CTO instead of chief operations officer. Um, and I but I was still doing sales and so it was, you know, I was kind of leading the tech team, but the sales part really burnt a lot of my time. Um, and I I I missed it and it was really tough for me. And because I, you know, I've been coding since I was 12, right? So, uh, I was like, I can do stuff on the side, but it just didn't feel right. Um, and just fast forwarding a bit, uh, a year and a half ago, I decided to start making this helicopter game, which allowed me to kind of get back into it. >> It also turns out that I was able to hand off the sales stuff to Gant, who loves it, my other business partner. Okay. >> He loves it, and he's great at it, and I should have done that years ago, and I don't know why I didn't think of it. >> Um, >> wait a second. You like doing this? >> You like doing this? Like, really? Yeah. And also, he's good at it. He's like better than me at it. and I've been doing it for 20 years. And so I was like, "Okay, well that's great cuz now I can actually go code." And so now I've actually been more way more in the code with our team, learning new stuff, going deeper and stuff. And I had always, you know, my you you talked a little bit, Nick, about the the curiosity part like at the very beginning of this that didn't go away. And so I'd always like stay up on Twitter and GitHub and I'd be reading like reading a lot of stuff. And I did I did open if you look at my GitHub history is never like dead, you know? I'm always doing >> 800 commu yeah 800 contributions a year was probably my low point or something but like it it still was never like the all every day and then uh so in the last year I've switched back to like actually leading the tech team um actually coding and I have this helicopter thing on the side so I'm doing I'm getting more code than I ever have. Well, and did you I'm just curious like for this period where you you were more handsoff in the code from the work perspective. >> Um I I think you had kind of touched on like you're trying to do a little bit maybe outside like you know keep you know keep in the code a little bit. Did you find that if you tried to like do something on the side like did you find that I don't I don't want to say like you felt guilty for doing did it feel almost wasteful where you're like wait why am I doing this like or like what was what was kind of keeping you from just doing more of that? >> There definitely was an aspect of that because there were parts of the business that needed my attention and if I'm coding I'm not doing that and that's really what I needed to work on. Um, and we gradually kind of ironed those out, you know, deploy patches, right, to the to the to the company, so so to speak, because it's a lot like a program. >> Um, and so that helped, uh, did a really big kind of revamp of of our marketing last year. Um, and that's been rolling really well. Uh, actually with one of the original designers from way back in the day who's now our director of communications. He's running with that. Justin Husky is fantastic. We have a lot of people from way back in the day. We We >> That's so cool. >> Yeah. our that's the thing I'm the most proud of is that we have very low turnover. Um we just almost never lose people. Um and uh there's people that have worked at the company since before the company existed because they go back to the previous companies. Um but yeah, I was able to hand that off as well. Um and and the other part of it was just uh I guess just not doing it all the time meant that and there wasn't really a purpose to it. There wasn't really, it was just, you know, I'd do like little playful projects or whatever, but I didn't have that staying power. So, I'd start something, I wouldn't finish it. I also found out I have ADHD, and it turns out that that's kind of a common thing among developers. >> Um, so >> my wife has been telling me this a little bit more. Um, she she's a therapist and over the past like >> I would say maybe year or so starts pointing things out like, hm, you know, like by the way, that's like that is a trait of that. Like, I'm not saying you have it. I'm not diagnosing that. >> I'm like, >> I didn't like I had no idea about these things. For full transparency, like I'm I feel comfortable saying this, you know, to a camera cuz it's it feels kind of embarrassing, but I'm probably not the only one. I just assumed that ADHD >> was like by definition, it was the kid in school who can't sit still and like as a result, they maybe have a lot of challenges going through school. I'm like, look, I did really well in school as a kid. Like >> I could focus. that was fine. I don't have ADHD. And now literally she'll send me things like on Instagram and it's like if you're doing this like that might be a sign. And I'm like I do every single one of these things all day every day. So >> I was exactly the same way. And my wife was like she's not a therapist but she she was reading up on it and stuff and um >> but she she's like I think this describes some things that you that you do. And I started reading like but yeah I'm like yeah but but like I I was like a almost straight A student and >> I but where did I do my homework? I did it like as I'm sitting down at my desk like I'd whip it out and I'd like ace the tests and then I'd like squeak by with an, you know, an A minus or something. You know I may straight A's but it wasn't like I was like diligent about stuff. I was just I was pretty smart and I could pick up on things quickly and I had curiosity about things so that helped and I Anyway, yeah, so I totally identify with what you're talking about and I started like I watched um uh Dr. K the healthy gamer. Uh he's really good. A lot of good stuff there. Yeah. >> Amazing. Yeah, >> he has some really great ADHD content. Uh and I started realizing, oh okay, so it's not just like the the hyperactive stuff. There's also inattentive, which is what I have, and which is where like I just lose interest in, you know, if someone's not being if someone's being too boring or whatever, cuz that's all the, you know, people would be like, "Jamin, you get a lot of stuff done. You're great. >> Could you pay attention more in meetings?" And I'd be like, "Yeah, just be more interesting and I will." >> Sounds a that's a you problem, not a problem. >> And uh but that doesn't go over so well, especially with my wife. So, um I uh yeah, so I went down this journey. Uh I have a great uh psychiatrist who's been good about like like kind of understanding this stuff, answering all my questions. I'm not going to just take your surface, you know, answer. I want to go deep on it. I want to understand it. The curiosity, I want to know exactly what's happening. How exactly does something like an empetamine like spur >> dopamine and and norepinephrine? Like I want to know the exact stuff like how is the mechanism? What happens? what what what does addiction look like? Because I've had addiction in my family that wasn't fun. And and um you know, like how do how do I avoid that? You know, I'm someone who barely takes a Tylenol when I have a a headache. Like maybe I'll take a half of one, you know, like I don't like that sort of thing. But >> it's funny you mentioned that too, like the on the headache thing and like in Tylenol or anything. >> I almost never get headaches and I I have been for like two days straight I've been doing some stuff at work. where it's like my wife is literally >> I don't know half an hour I have a splitting headache that's terrible and I'm like I never get this and then I was like >> wait a second like I could I could take ad like I never take Advil I could take Advil for this >> like it's a new experience. Yeah, that's funny. And and I was the same way. And uh >> so for me to go to that there there were, you know, there's other options and stuff. And so we worked through all that stuff, but it was life-changing cuz a year and a half ago or yeah, a little over Yeah, like a year and a half ago, I started uh on some like taking vivance and and Guan Facina stuff and and um it was the most productive year and a half of my life. And I both professionally and personally I was able to do things. I'm a productive person that I didn't think like you know cuz I'm doing I'm always like nobody ever complains I'm not doing enough. Usually they complain I'm doing too much >> and but I I became productive in ways that were like I could direct my attention. I could actually then focus on something and actually get it done and go from start to finish. Um all those things. And so I was able to do some pretty big upgrades to the company as well as at home where some things were needed. Uh not just my house, but like the family, you know, cuz these four kids that I had back in the day, now they're teenagers and now they have different needs and I have to learn and I have to get better at those things. Um and help my wife uh you know, a lot more. And so that that stuff uh I was able to I think make make some pretty big strides forward because I was taking care of that. Um and there there's still some times where I where I think ah you know it be nice to not have to uh you know be on medication and stuff but it like the it's kind of undeniable what the effect was. >> It's it's interesting too. I like that. Um, like I can really appreciate that you were saying, you know, you're you're talking to a psychiatrist and and you're like, I want to understand, not like just g give me the tell me what to do. I'm going to go do it. It's like I need to understand like I I absolutely can resonate with that. >> Really appreciate that. And I'm curious. I don't like So I I probably have to go follow up on some of this stuff personally, but >> I I'll send you I'll send you a blog post that I wrote. Um >> I I would love to read that. >> Well, that will help. I think. Um >> thank you. Um >> if I just typed it into the private chat, you can check it out. Hopefully that one helps. >> I think >> so. This question I have and I'm curious uh on your experience or thoughts on this is like >> I just realized too my camera's doing crazy things. Like now I feel like I'm bright again. I've been living in the dark or something. I don't know. Maybe it's just my monitor. Um >> the uh the thought that I was having as you were chatting through that was like >> you said that you know you've always kind of been like a productive person and and this has still been transformative on top of that. Would you >> would you say that would you describe your productivity or what that looked like before that you were getting a lot of stuff done but now it feels like you're getting like particular things done end to end and closing them out. Like is that a way to describe that or >> you Yeah, you nailed it. uh I would get things done that interested me and I would be productive in that way and because I'm a curious person there were a lot of things that interested me but I didn't control that flow I didn't control that I didn't direct that that energy and so I would do a whole bunch of things that were productive and a lot of times useful but they were not with like what's the end goal and like how do I go from A to A to B um and the difference a year and a half ago was I started being able to go where do I want to go uh just take a step back, look at kind of the vision of my life of the things that are challenges and the things that are like stuff I want to do and start making very intentional choices toward that. And so I was able to um you know really kind of hone in on that. And it turns out you get a lot of traction when you're not constantly switching gears and constantly switching >> like what road you're on. Like I can actually like I I set a course and I was able to do it. Um and so that's really where it's not so much even the productivity went up. Um I think it did but it was just more that it was very much on like high yield things on high uh traction things >> intentionally picking like doing the high priority things with intention. Um cuz yeah, I I can definitely relate to this feeling of like I I know I get a lot of stuff done and like >> part of me is like proud for like trying to do lots of stuff, but at the same time I'm like >> I know that if I like on a Saturday if I wake up and I'm like I'm just going to >> code and I'm going to go do things. Like I could probably find anything to go code and spend time on >> and come up for air at like you know 2 in the morning and be like that was awesome. Uh, and then if I look at what I actually got, >> what what did I actually get done? I'm like, >> was any of that like, you know, quote unquote useful? Like, >> yeah, moving the needle in the way that you wanted to. Yeah, I I I relate. I really relate. And >> cool. Okay. >> I I think that that was the biggest difference. It was It was a It was a I don't know what's the right word. It's like culture shock or it's a it's a shock to the system in some ways because >> it's like, "Oh man, now my life's kind of on rails and I don't get to just pick all the paths and stuff." And I was like, "No, I'm still picking the paths. It's just that I'm picking the paths of things that were obligations that I was kind of just ignoring and not doing well. Um, >> and it's like bury yourself in something else and just the time would kind of evaporate." Yeah. >> Exactly. And um it it was also a shock to my wife cuz we just you know like we've been married for 22 years. There's you know a certain rhythm of how we do things and but then she also was diagnosed with ADHD a little different style. I think it's a pretty big umbrella which is part of the problem. >> Uh but hers is more like on the social anxiety side and different things like that. And so she was able to um uh you know get hers treated and and changed up some of the things she was doing. >> Um and and then yeah, I was able to put more time into yeah the stuff that mattered and um and counterintuitively I mean maybe not maybe for for smarter people than me it's not counterintuitive but uh now I have way more time to do whatever I want because I've actually taken care of my obligations. Yeah. They didn't pile up and you're like, "Oh no, I have a a billion things that I should have been doing and didn't." >> Right. Yeah. And way less guilt because now I can just be like, "This is the time I set aside to do this thing, you know?" >> Right. >> Um I had this question from a little bit earlier in the conversation. And I'm curious, maybe if I ask it now, maybe you'll have different answers for it, like as a before and after kind of thing. But one of the things that you mentioned that um I I don't think a lot of people do and maybe should lean into more, it's I think an easier said than done kind of thing is you had mentioned that like in terms of being curious and wanting to learn, it's uncomfortable, right? And I think that and I I speak, you know, as I say this, this is a me thing for sure, but >> I I like learning. I think that's cool, but I don't like being a newbie at something. And so being put into a situation where like you're like maximizing learning is usually when you're completely new to it and it's wildly uncomfortable cuz you might be an expert at something or feel like it >> and then you go to something else and you're like wow I suck at this and like why don't I just do the thing I'm good at. So, I'm curious like >> how did you navigate that before and like lean into that and and maybe the followup is did that change at all like after maybe kind of addressing ADHD a little bit more clearly? >> You know, I think it was actually earlier than that for me. Um, weirdly, you know, everybody's journey is different. I was definitely that way uh with my first company. Like the stuff I knew how to do, I was like, this is what we're doing. We're doing PHP. we're not switching to Ruby or whatever you want to do, you know. Um, but there was a moment and I really actually I think it was the switch to Ruby where there was a an employee of mine, Daniel Bumpus, who was very impactful in kind of helping shape the direction of of the company. Um, not at first cuz I wouldn't listen to him, but uh but he he kept on saying, "Ah, we should really be doing Ruby Ruby on Rails. I think it'd be you know, there's a lot of rails in the Portland area, which is pretty close to where we are. So, uh, you know, like that would be good for for the business and everything. And I just kept on, I don't know, you know, we're good at PHP, like let's keep doing our thing. And besides, I'll be like, like you said, like a brand new, you know, uh, learner there. Um, but I finally was like, okay, Daniel, we'll we'll rewrite we have to rewrite our website anyway. So, let's just rewrite our website in Ruby on Rails and see how that goes. and you can help us and if there's a problem then it's your problem not mine you know >> this is on you >> yeah exactly and it in that transition I realized okay my fears were not wellounded yes I didn't know stuff but I still know coding and I'm you know I can learn stuff and um all my back and what I realized was >> all of my like when I learned Ruby I got better at PHP like it it made me better at my previous stuff like everything I learn, I keep getting better at the previous thing because I now can think about it in different ways and I have new like neural pathways opened up. >> And that I think right there was what changed me cuz then I was like, wait, going in and learning something new is how I get better at the old stuff. >> And um and and so I sort of embraced it actually almost to a fault to the point where I was like chasing new tech. I was like new shiny. >> Interesting. >> Yeah. For a long time. And that was I mean that was definitely ADHD like like just chasing you know learning Elixir and Elm and and you know uh all these different things and um but but with that said it was and I still do a little bit of that cuz I just you know I'm a coding nerd. Um but there there are other things that I've learned uh you know I I started um working out with one of my employees who was like a previous like you know trainer and uh and I was a complete noob. you know, I I had lifted when I played basketball and stuff, but it's just basic stuff, you know, true. And he and we were doing more technical stuff. And so that also was like really challenging me and I felt like a complete failure cuz I was out of shape and, you know, having a hard time. >> Everything's hard. It's old. >> Everything's hard >> and it hurts and I don't like it and I'd rather not be doing this. But, uh, but it, you know, that that helped me kind and then I started playing hockey again. I'd only played I played like two two three years something like that when I was like 19 to 21 before I got married and um and maybe a little after I got married. Um and then yeah then a buddy called me up and was like, "Hey, I'm putting together a team and I need a goalie and I know you used to play goalie." I'm like, "Yeah, but I only did it for a few years and I kind of suck." And he's like, "Nope, you're on it. Let's go." you know, uh, cuz I'm Finnish American, you know, my ancestry is Finnish, and this is like a Finnish American hockey team. And so he's like, you're you're the only Finn I know who plays goalie, so let's go. And uh, so I've been doing that for the last 6 years. And that was again like coming in like, you know, I had done it, but it was like pickup. This was like this is like league and everything. >> So that was uh that was also another like I'm brand new to this stuff, but we all were, so that helped, you know, like everybody was. Um, so yeah, it I and then I think once um the difference now now that I've like started to treat my ADHD is that I I can take a systematic approach to it where before I had to like dive into the deep end, >> sink or swim and then just kind of learn, you know, however I could. But now I like literally bought a book. Uh I need to brush up on my C++ because there's a lot more C++ happening now in the React Native world. I'm like, h my C++ isn't that great. So, I went and bought a book. Like I >> I want to go address this. So, like I will take steps to go address this versus being like, oh, I should probably do that. But you know what else is really cool? This other thing over here. >> Yes. Exactly. See, you know me very well. And uh but now I've I'm putting an hour a day into it. Like I never could have done that before, but now I can do it. like I I I pull it up just on Kindle and then I like have the exercises and I and I read and I try to understand and I also use chat GBT for some of this stuff and I've vibe coded a a a little app that helps me with with learning it as well and um so some side quests as usual but but but I'm learning and I'm learning it in the systematic way that I could never have done before. Yeah, I I can really appreciate what you were saying there about uh and let me take one step back. Uh I definitely have not con like I know I should I have not convinced myself that >> you know learning more different things that I'm uncomfortable with will help. I I know it but like I won't >> I still won't do it. >> That's tough. Yeah, it is a tough problem. Uh and and uh and like I said, I was there too and I went almost the other way where I probably should have really tried to bake more in what I was doing. Um it it happens to have helped me because the because React Native is such a fusion of different technologies. It's like nine or 10 different languages all in one and there's many different platforms and things. So it's kind of a it's a framework built for ADHD people who kind of like variety, you know. But but with that said, uh I totally get that. Um, and yeah, I everybody learns differently and it's just really you can't prescribe anything. If I I used to people would be like, "Well, you just got to do like 1 hour a day and you read this book and then you're be I'm like that I would never do that. Now I'm doing it." >> Literally do anything else other than >> anything else. Yeah. Anything else? That sounds like torture. And also every book ever written is not fast enough for my liking. And so I'll end up skipping chapters and then I'll, you know, obviously flounder because I don't know what's happening. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um but yeah, it's interesting. I have a a former colleague I used, as you were saying this, I have a former colleague I used to work with and it reminded me that >> um we're very like if you were to ask us about like, you know, conceptually >> how to solve a problem like the high level, we would probably both talk about what we want to do in the exact same way same way. So like very much aligned on like goals. But if you said now go code it, I'm very much like as a C developer, I'm very like typical like I'm going to overabstract object-oriented absolutely everything. I need 15 different levels of abstraction and then it's beautiful. Um >> and he's uh also like he does >> he does C# development of course because that's what we were like the stuff we were working on, but >> lots of other programming languages too, but he takes everything is much more of like a functional approach. And I remember like working on stuff with him and we would have completely different ways to go approach things in terms of the implementation but the end goal is like spoton like we we're after the same thing and I can remember like as someone who had already at that time been working in C for years and years >> being like looking at his code and being like I >> like what is going on? Not in a bad way, but like holy crap, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. And it really, like, as you said, it really made me think like, hey, look, like he's doing these things in ways that I never would have even considered or knew were possible. >> Now I can start applying some of that stuff. And to this day, I'm sure I still code very differently than him, but there's many pieces that I never would have done ever if it weren't for uh this colleague of mine, Cam Sap. And I really appreciate that. Yeah, I I totally relate to that and and I think that your deep knowledge of the patterns that you use and sort of like your your opinionated approach, there's a lot of benefit to that. No doubt. Like like you said, you kind of already know how you're going to go about it and you know you know where like the where the where the dragons are too. You understand that like I'm going to I'm going to over abstract this one thing or I'm going to do this. >> I know it's going to happen. >> Yeah, it's it happens and I totally get that. Um, and I I actually think that that's where you would you would actually incred you would there's so much low lowhanging fruit uh for you because you go learn something like uh like a like an ML language like like Elm or Haskell or something just to just to do it like get get to the point where you can maybe do like a a an AAR pathf finding um you know little app or something like that and then just throw it away and just be like I'm done with that. uh you come back to your C# you already have these deeply embedded like um patterns and stuff which are actually very good very very well tested you know you've shipped software like you you know what you're doing but you bring that back and you start noticing you'll you'll start noticing like situations where you're like oh I could apply this pattern in a way that um is more C# like appropriate um like you don't want to just totally like everybody on your team you know not understand what's happening biting the language and stuff. >> Exactly. Yeah. Um but but just just a little bit better, a little bit like little tweaks and stuff and that's what I found definitely was the case. Um and and I you know like I went and learned um so I I'm I'm doing a lot of GDScript because I'm using GDAU as the like game engine. Yeah. Uh, which by the way also you can do C# on, which is cool. And I don't know C#, so I probably should have done C# on it so I could learn it instead of GDScript that nobody uses. Um, but uh but I was just kind of like I I want to just use what they recommend, which is GDScript. >> And GDScript has like a much inferior like type system. C is way better. Typescript is what I'm used to, which is I think is the same guy or at least they they both came out of Microsoft. Is it the same guy? >> Same guy. Yeah. >> Yeah. So, like the dude's brilliant and and Typescript has an incredible type system and so does C and GDScript does not. It's like very basic. Doesn't even have generics, you know? It's it's like there's a lot of things that are just so hard to do with it. Um, but even with that said, like I'm productive with it. Um, and and but the the model was so different. Like so different. And I here's going to your point like like like about bringing the stuff back and like like kind of looking at something brand new and being like oh you know and having it influence you. So I've made games but I've only ever made 2D games. You know I've made tons of games but they're always 2D. It was like Game Maker and Q Basic and things like that. And I wanted to make a 3D game. This is like you know a combat helicopter game. It's going to be multiplayer. It already is multiplayer. I got that working. Um, and it's in 3D and uh there when you're and and also I wanted to run on Macs, Windows, Linux, everything possible uh Steam Deck and so um I'm really watching performance and in game development unlike the applications that we generally write uh you have 60 frames a second and every 16.6 6 milliseconds, a new frame is coming and no matter what, like you got to be ready for it. 16 milliseconds for a web developer is ridiculous cuz you've got 300 milliseconds or whatever that user perception stuff, right? >> And then uh then, you know, backend developers, you know, there's certain kind of u feeling around that. um maybe mobile apps, it starts applying a little more because you have lower-end devices and stuff, but for me, I'm trying to get it to run on, you know, my dad's old computer. I'm trying to get it run on my MacBook Air and I've got like heavy assets and I've got all this stuff and 16. So, I just start really optimizing the heck out of everything for a year, a year and a half now. Um, and then I come back to my team and I'm like, we need to change how we think about mobile apps. We need to stop thinking about them like web apps. Like they they can't we can't think about them that way. We have to think about them closer to games. Like you have 16. We don't want to drop frames. Dropping frames is bad. Let's not drop frames. How do we not drop frames? Well, we have to be able to measure. We have to be able to do these things. So that just infected everything that I was doing. The building the game just started infecting all this stuff. and I started really digging into I've always been like performance has always been a part of because like Cubasic on a 486 you got to think about it. Um but like this really kind of like made me deep dive on it and now I'm I'm really pushing that with my director of engineering Robin Heines and with the whole team. Um and and that's one of the reasons I'm going into C++. I think there's more stuff we can do there. Um, if we do end up doing uh any like Windows apps with React Native Windows, then we'll need to know C# as well. And so that's another part of it. >> Um, and I'm like, we can't be we can't be afraid of any of this stuff cuz that's all we do is React Native. So, we have to know all the parts of it. Um, so yeah, uh, long winding answer, but uh, but definitely from my standpoint, I think that you would benefit a ton from, you know, just learning something random like that and you would bring it back and your deep patterns and really good knowledge of all these things already would lock it in place where you're not just trying to you're not just like reinventing the wheel. You're applying those patterns to something you're already good at. >> Yeah, I can I can really appreciate that. And I, you know, it it's really good to hear something like that from someone because >> it's easy enough for me to sit here and be like, "Yep, I'm never going to, you know, I see something and I'm like, I'm never going to do that cuz that's a distraction from C# land." Like, >> no. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I get that. >> Yeah. And it's I guess for me in I don't know if I actually have ADHD. I'm assuming I probably do, but I think a lot of it comes down to like I will hyperfocus on something like say like C because I am comfortable >> because I do know what I can do there and anything else does feel like a distraction from that. Um so I can it's almost like I can use C# and distract myself with what I build with it >> versus the the techn like a different language or something to pull in. That actually is a good point. And and so I would probably not use GDO, but I would probably well GDAU is is an option for sure. Go to GDO or go to Unity. Both of those use C# and build something out of outside of your normal application paradigm. Build something that is like completely different but in a language you really understand which is C. So you can totally do that. That's you know you can innovate in different ways. the language itself, >> like I said, that may help you and it probably would help you in different ways to do some of that stuff, but the paradigm changes and just like having to think about things differently. Um, build a 3D game. I'm I'm big on that now because I think that that really like makes your it changes your brain as an app developer. We we do 2D all all day long, but let's, you know, just think 3D. It's not as hard, by the way, as I thought it would be. Like, it's actually >> good to know. Honestly, it feels like the old Qbasic days. I'm building a lot of stuff that's kind of the same. I do have to think in 3D and I the the 3D models and stuff, but there's a lot of stuff that helps you with that. Engines and everything and and GPUs and all this stuff. And so ultimately like your C# knowledge is C#'s a general purpose language is a very good one. It can go in all kinds of different ways and there's plenty of different Unity is huge and and and of course GDAU um and and others. And then I mean there's ways to build uh mobile apps with with C# there's ways to build all kind you know back do you do back end or do apps like what is your >> primarily like if I'm building stuff now I will focus on back end but it's it's funny like I have worked in Unity. Um but >> as you were saying like I don't I've never built a 3D game. Why? Because well that sounds like it's complicated 2D all day. I can go do Yeah, why not? I'll do 2D all day. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I was the same way. 3D is not that bad. and and honestly, yeah, just uh you can get assets from all kinds of different places, free assets, you know, royalty-free and everything. And the fact that you already know C, that actually held me back from using Unity. Like I I went to Unity and I'm like, I don't know this language. I'm going to have to learn this language. Plus, I have to learn, you know, this other stuff. GD GDScript was close enough to stuff. I I I did a lot of Ruby and it's kind of close to Ruby. It's closer to Python, but it's like Python with types, but don't call it Python or the community will get mad at you. Uh, but it's it was close enough like Ruby especially really helped me with this. So, I was able to learn it very quickly. The fact that you already know C like totally. I think now you can just learn the parts you need to learn. I'm curious your thought on this and I've I've kind of shared this with people when it comes to learning and like I don't know I follow this advice a little bit when I have done a little bit of exploration but um what my recommendation to folks has been unless you just want to go like completely you know into the deep end on totally random stuff which if you want to sure but in my opinion if you're like I want to go pick up something I generally say try to fix some variables so like for example >> um you want to learn uh uh I don't know a new database just new database tech pick a language you already know build like if you build web apps build a web app in a language you know >> swap the database out if you want to learn um you know you like basically pick a variable to to to switch instead of all of it >> and I've said that otherwise for me at least it feels almost overwhelming where like you're picking something up >> and maybe too many things and you start to go I'm hitting a wall and like now I don't want to do this at all. >> Yeah. Yeah. I 100% agree. You you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly and and that's that's where um if you do find yourself like having a little bit of a block um learning something new uh like for me like C like C++ for example um it's always been really like that was the second language I learned when you know after QBasic and it was just so overwhelming and the language has gotten even bigger since then in even more stuff although it's actually simpler now but but there there was well kind simpler. Um, but for me, I couldn't just go and like say, "Okay, I'm going to jump into like Unreal Engine and learn C++ and do build the game." Like that's that's a tremendous amount. >> Stop me from ever touching Unreal was like, >> "Oh, yeah. >> That's just going to be way too much." And the thought of it's overwhelming. Yeah, >> exactly. But I know React Native. Like, I've been doing it for 10 years. Yeah. I I fell behind a little bit, but like I I'm around it. I'm immersed in it. I'm talking about on my podcast all the time. I'm always like constantly immersed in this world and I'm also I am building apps like I'm building them not for clients but I'm building them to test things. I'm doing you know different things and since C++ is becoming more and more a part of it because like the native side you know like on the JavaScript side we have TypeScript JavaScript like that's crossplatform native side C C++ runs on all the different platforms. So it runs on Android, iOS, Windows, Mac, anywhere you want to run it. um not on web, but that's okay. Um and so so okay, well what if I learn C++ and apply it to React Native? Okay, that's a pretty straightforward value proposition. Exactly like you said, like I already I'm comfortable in this environment. I know how all the build tools work. I know how to, you know, all that stuff. I'm just it's a new language in in one spot. It's not even new. It's just that I've been ignoring it. It's been there the whole time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That's awesome. And uh I I want to be respectful of your time as well, but and I know you mentioned podcast and you just brought it up. Uh can we hear maybe to as like some some closing thoughts, can you tell us about your podcast and uh and then following that I'm going to ask where people can reach out to you and find you and and all that kind of fun stuff? >> Sure. Yeah, absolutely. Uh it's React Native Radio and uh been doing it for about 5 years, something like that. Um you know, it's more or less weekly. I think we do about 35 episodes a year, something like that. So, not quite weekly. Um, this year we might get a few more out. Uh, I'm taking a break as as well as, uh, Robin, uh, there's three of us that do it, the main hosts. U Robin, my my director of engineering, uh, myself, and then Mazen Chami. And he's continuing with some guest hosts from from Infinite Red, my company. Uh, but you can go to reactnatradio.com. We talk about all things ReactNative Radio. We or React Native. And we also we we interview people like from Shopify and from you know, uh, Meta and, you know, Amazon and all these places that are using React Native and get these really good stories and and, uh, cool stuff. So, it's, um, yeah, definitely check it out. Appreciate people people checking that out. I I should be back, uh, probably early next year, uh, hosting again, um, at least somewhat. I don't know if I'll be full-time, but, I'll be I'll be back to some degree. And you can also, uh, follow, if you if you're interested in my game, you can follow Jam Games. J Mm I N uh games on Twitter. Uh and you can go to jamon.games uh on that's my website. Um I need to update it, but uh but my Twitter I I put stuff out and you can kind of see my game there. It's actually on Steam right now, although it's not cool. You can like wishlist it. It's called Into the Dawn. Uh and it's uh like you fly Apaches and stuff and you can fly with up to seven other people. >> And you were saying that's like on every platform then, right? Like that's the Yeah, I'm developing it on a Mac. Um it runs great on Macs. It runs even better on Windows and uh I have a Steam Deck and it runs fine on that. Although I need to make some changes to like the controls and stuff. But um but yeah, you can fly in the same helicopter. So you and I could fly together and you could like be the pilot and I'm the gunner or whatever and or you can just fly alongside each other. Um in fact, my dad who's 70, he played back in the day he played those games. He hasn't played in a long time. And then my son who's 20 uh and I flew a mission together uh the other day. It was really fun uh to have like three generations playing my game together. So that was cool. Uh and if people are really interested, they can reach out and I'll get them into our Discord and and get them a link to try, you know, the earlier broken versions of the game that I'm putting out now. >> Oh, that's so cool. Well, I wanted to say thank you so much for for taking the time to do this. Uh I love the story. I really appreciate the different perspective especially like I know obviously like none of this is medical advice kind of thing but like uh you know the different perspective on ADHD and and how you've navigated that I think is tremendous. I think it's super cool to hear and so yeah just lots of >> super interesting experience. So thank you. >> I I appreciate you having me on Nick and and uh I I did drop in our private chat a link to my blog post about ADHD. I think I have I have three blog posts where I talk where I kind of update as well. Um, so check that out and obviously yeah, talk to your doctor. I'm not I'm not a doctor. Um, but I think it's common in our industry and u hopefully not too not too boring for people uh listening to us talk about this stuff, but it is something that did have a tremendous impact on my life uh in a way that I wasn't really prepared for uh honestly. >> Well, awesome. And again, thank you so much and for being transparent and vulnerable with that stuff as well. I think it's I think it's great and I think a lot of people really appreciate that. So, thanks again. >> Awesome. Thanks a lot, Nick. Appreciate you having me on.