Up Level Your Software Engineering Mindset! - Interview With Richard Donovan

and and they're like, "Well, this guy's going to have to look over your code and give it the rubber stamp and say whether it's good enough." I'm like, "Uh uh, what? Oh my god. Oh, that's that that's terrible." >> What does mindset have to do with software engineering? Well, basically everything, as we'll see in this conversation. Hi, my name is Nick Coantino and I'm a principal software engineering manager at Microsoft. In this video, I was joined by Rich Donovan to talk about mindset in terms of software engineering and how it shows up in all sorts of different places. Rich shares his experiences and his unique journey in his career and along the way all the lessons that he learned that acrewed towards mindset being important for software engineering. Personally, I think the framing in this video is incredibly important to think about because without mindset as a focus, we don't have the awareness to go create positive change in a lot of the things we do, which extends well beyond just software engineering in general. I think that you'll enjoy this conversation and hearing yet another example of different career journeys from other people. So, sit back, enjoy, and let me know in the comments if you like this kind of thing. Thanks, and I'll see you next time. give us a little rundown for what you've been up to, how you got to where you are and and kind of like a bit of that journey and kind of preface the conversation with like a little bit about you. >> Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so come from a small town in the northeast of England called Middlesborough and uh it's one of these towns where I think people don't feel like they have many opportunities there. >> Okay. >> I certainly didn't. Um, and I went to one of the worst schools in in the country. like no one makes anything of themselves that goes to that school. Um many many people around that area kind of enjoyed a bit of burglary and drugs and you can basically bet your bottom dollar that many of them have have done time. Um, so wasn't the greatest environment to to kind of kick off with, but I remember thinking I was in around my third year at school. So maybe I was about 13ish and um a career career officer came into the school and like, "Oh, do you know what what do you want to do with yourself?" And to be honest, I had no idea. I had no idea what I wanted to do. And the only real answer that I had was I want to leave Middlesbrough. >> Sure. >> That was it. That was it. Like whatever whatever it is I'm going to do, I have to leave Middlesbrough. Um so so that that was that was interesting um at at such a such a young age. Um and I when when I actually did come to leave school, I still didn't know what I wanted to do. Um, I was into my fitness, running, football, all of that stuff. So, I enrolled on a sports course at college and thought, you know, let's do something with that. Six weeks in, I did a bit of reflection. I was like, where where is this actually lead leading? Like, okay, >> it's kind of fun. It's kind of interesting, but is there a job at the end of it? >> Um, and bearing in mind this was still in Middlesbrough, um, I I decided that there wasn't. and I went back to my I went back to my secondary school um form teacher and just kind of had a chat with him because it's it's not really in my nature to kind of give up on something and >> sure. >> So I was like I'm I'm basically going to be a college dropout. Like I don't want to do that. What what what am I going to do? So speak to my foreign teacher and he's just like look you're you're a smart kid. like you know what whatever you want to do I'm I'm sure you can do it and you know you'll make the right you'll make the right choices. So I was like fine okay. So we bin that off and I took a job as a like a a trainee apprentice type thing. Um building computers um so building PCs and that kind of thing. Um, and that again that was interesting and at that point I'd sort of decided that computers were where it was at. And I did that based on this really complicated formula and that was what do I think is going to get me the most money in several years time and I decided it was computers. So I'm kind of doing that and one day out of the blue my oldest brother he's living couple of hundred miles away from Middlesbrough um in a place called Granthm and he's working for a software house. I didn't even know what a software house was. And he rings me up one day and he says, "Ridge, I've got a job for you. Um you'll be at the bottom of this company, but you can go anywhere within the company if something takes your interest." And I'm like, "Oh, okay." And basically on the call u he he then followed that up with obviously if you take this job you'll have to leave home. I was like >> sure. >> So on the call I'm like yeah all right I'll I'll do it. So so I go I go home that night and I'm like hey mom I'm leaving home packing my bags like couple of days later I'm on the train and I'm heading to a town where I don't know anyone apart from my brother. And >> were you just very ready for a change? Like is that like is that why the immediaccy of it? Like or just are you more spontaneous by nature? I'm just curious. >> I I I know I'm not I don't think I'm super spontaneous to be honest. I I think it was just like, you know, the thing that really I get got me kind of thinking was, oh, you know, you're at the bottom, you can go anywhere. That that was the thing. And I was like, okay, that's given me some kind of path. And I'm like, yes. You know, and that that that kind of thing really appeals to me. I'm very much of, you know, of the thought that you get for what you work for. So when someone puts something like that in front of me, I'm like, that's an opportunity for me to to kind of earn my path, if you like. >> You get what you put into it, right? So, okay. No, that's cool. And sorry to interrupt you. I was just like, wait a second. Like that's a pretty spontaneous thing to do. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean it's pretty random. I was only 17 and and when I think about it now, I'm like, you know, it surprises me. I'm like I wouldn't make such a big decision like that now. I'd be like, whoa, what what? So anyway, so this job happened to be what I what I call a pointand-click tester. And so it was over 20 years ago. And they they basically said, "Look, here's this thing on a computer and a mouse. click around and and if it breaks, tell us what you did. That's your job. That's all. And I'm like, "Oh, okay. This is this is easy." Um, but for me, again, part of my mindset, like they they've had to replace various testers in this role because they've just got bored and they've just gone, "This is mine, not can't be bothered with this." >> And and I I turned it into a game. I'm just like, "Hey, how many of these can I find?" And and so I'm doing all random things and in random orders and all these kinds of things, not really knowing what I'm doing. And I'm finding loads and loads of bugs and I'm and I'm like I'm enjoying it. And they're like, "Wow, you know, this this amazing. You're like, you know, you're a really good tester. Like I'm just like I'm just having fun." Um but but the main thing was like the very first book I found took it to one of the developers there and he he had a look at it and and it I I I remember one book actually it was it was literally something meant was meant to change color and it didn't change color. It was just like a label on a form. And I and I go in, I'm like, "Oh, it hasn't changed." And the developer's like, "Oh, oh no. Oh, that's going to be a nightmare to fix." And I'm like, "Is it really? Is it really?" No. Oh, right. Okay, fine. Good one. Um, and and then I found another one and anyway, I go to him and I'm like, "Is his bugs?" Give me 10 minutes. Goes back, he goes, "Try again. Try again." And so I try again. It's all It's all working great. And I'm just like, how did you do that? >> Right. Okay. Yeah. >> And that was it. That was that was the step. That was the first step. And and this guy just, you know, he's really really nice guy. And I was fortunate enough to be surrounded by some some really good people at that time who were really appreciated my interest and my enthusiasm. And then they jumped in on that and were like, "Oh, you know, he's really into it. let's help him. And you know, they just pointed to the programming books on the shelf and they're like, there's a load of those up there. You know, start reading and and you're good to go. And I was in a town with no friends. So that's what I did. Took the books off the shelf, took my laptop home, started reading, started building. Um 6 months later, um I was a junior dev as in working in Visual Fox Pro. would you believe? >> Nice. Okay. >> Um and then a couple of years later, the the entire company was rewriting their entire software suite um in C#. 1.0. >> There you go. And that's history. >> Yeah. And so I was like, "Wow, oh this is this is a great opportunity." And yeah, just spent another couple of years there. And at that time I was like I had two years experience in C.Net at like 18, 19, whatever. And hardly anyone else in the industry had that amount of experience with it. >> So suddenly I was like, people are like, "Oh, wow. Oh, you've got this. Oh, you've got this." And I was like, "Hey, great stuff." >> Um, so yeah, you know, great. Really, really, really into it and all of that stuff. Really kind of enthusiastic to learn new things and all of that. And um and then yeah, just jumped I jumped a few companies like relatively quickly like a year to two years um to kind of hike my salary because that's what I was thinking about then and um yeah found my way over to to Norwich where I am now and yeah just kind of worked through a number of roles senior dev tech lead engineer manager uh software architect was my last role um at at Aviva um fairly big insurance company in the UK and yeah from there I had what we might call a midlife crisis or something close to >> I wanted to I was curious uh to get to this point right because we were chatting before and you know the career I wanted to kind of mention the career journey part for me is very interesting and I think it's good for the audience to hear about that too because there's so many people that you know they're going to be at different points in their career journey right and some of them are at the point where like they haven't even started they're very young and they're like I don't know what I want to do is this for me there's people that are you know they're already in their career and it has nothing to do with software engineering and they're going can I do this like there's so many different perspectives and I think the more that I hear people sharing their journey and the more opportunity people hear like hey look Not everyone was like, I'm, you know, I'm 5 years old and I know I want to be a software engineer. I'm going to start, you know, learning Rust and JavaScript, you know, at age five, six, seven. Like, not not everyone's doing this. And I think that especially on social media, we see so many examples of all of these people like, I started so early. This was, you know, in my blood. And it's like that's not the reality for most people. And that's totally cool. there's still an awesome career path for you. So, um yeah, you kind it sounds like for you at least you you you did kind of know relatively early like you had a bit of a change in the beginning but kind of were on your software journey relatively early but um some people I've talked to you know it's at age 30 later like and it's totally cool it's fine. So midlife crisis now let's hear all about it. >> Yeah. So sitting there at my desk um having a bit of a slow day as happens now and again and um I'm just kind of reflecting having a little few thoughts about the future and and then I have this like fairly morbid thought and it goes along the lines of you know if I'm laying on my deathbed and I'm looking back on my life and between now and Then I continue down this path and I just sit at the this desk and this keyboard and I tap away and and I do the things that I've been doing for most of my life, which is to be honest, not being particularly sociable, not being like super nice to people when I when I could be. Um being quite pessimistic about various things um all of that stuff. And I'm thinking, do you know what? If I continue doing that and I get to the end and I look back and let's just say that the time that we do have here is all the time that we ever have, I'm just thinking, am I going to be happy looking back? And very quickly the answer was, well, no, I'm not. So, and then that was followed up quicker still by, okay, so what the hell are you going to do? So, what And it and it's and it's interesting because like the the soon as I started to think about it, obviously it involved a transition of some kind like if I'm not doing this, I need to do that. And and the very next thought is, well, how do I match my salary doing something else? And it's like that's pretty much impossible like straight away, right? I've been doing I've been doing this job for 20 odd years. Um, >> and especially that was one of your goals you said in the beginning, right? Like you said, I want to I want to do this because it's something that will pay well. And I I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think, you know, people's livelihoods, you know, can be dramatically affected by their income level. So people picking jobs being like, I want to do something that makes me good money. Some people might say like, oh, that's like, you know, the wrong way to look at it. It's like at some point like you know income for people I would say beyond a certain point starts to be like okay like you're not really getting much more out of it but there you know there are levels are pretty high that you can still be like more money will actually help me in my life and this is going to be different across the world of course but um I just wanted to mention like yeah it kind of makes sense if you were like I'm chasing money in my career and now you're going I if I need to switch like am I just resetting on that? That's a pretty big uh kind of oh crap moment. >> Yeah. And and I think I think the interesting thing about them about the money as well is like um at various points in my career and and this kind of feeds into some of the mindset stuff as well. But um in in some of my earlier years I was working with some contractors and you know they're on day rates that you think wow how is that happening? And you know, you have these thoughts like, "Wow, like no one would ever pay me that amount of money to do that job. Like, if they're getting paid that much money, they must be like fantastic, >> right?" >> Um, and it it didn't take too long to realize that these people were very average, is probably putting it kindly. Um, yeah. No, I mean the the the the honesty of it is that you know just because someone's a contractor there are fantastic contractors, there are average contractors and there are poor contractors just like permanent staff doing their normal jobs and that you know that that takes a little bit of time to realize but just that day rate as I said you know thinking about the money I was like one day one day I'm going to do that and when I when I thought about it it was like it's It's not going to be now. It's not going to be next year. It's not going to be two years. Like I can't even really see when it would be like, but it's there. And And it's one of those things that we we might touch on in a bit, but I like I kind of cons I kind of consider that like directional focus. So, it wasn't necessarily a goal. Like I didn't as in I didn't write it down. think kind of was a goal, but it's just something that meant more than most things when I thought about it. Let's let's put it that way. >> And then that triggers something and then every every now and again something comes up and it's like how does this fit that situation? Could this push you towards that? And that kind of thing. So, you know, that that that kind of played in somewhere along the line and and and I did do that for for several years and that, you know, that played a big role in why I was able to do what I'm now well that what I'm about to tell you or at least like the decision I could make, which obviously not everyone can. Um, so yeah, you know, I'm I'm sitting there. I've I've I've earned a decent amount of money. I've got maybe several years salary in the bank if you like. Um and and so I start to think about all you know what on earth am I going to do? How if I'm not going to do this, what is it going to be? Um, and for me that it it's it's such it's such a strange thing to talk about it when I think about like who I was then and how I was then >> because the decisions I was making didn't match the person I was. So I was like fully like somewhere else or was kind of like making a decision knowing that I needed to be someone else practically. So >> that's a very interesting way to frame it. Yeah. Okay. >> Yeah. I don't even know where those words come from because I I don't even know how to articulate it if I'm honest. But I'm like even the like the sentence I basically said to myself was I I want to work with people more. And that sentence in it in and of itself is just like so far away from the person I was. And I like I I was this person who hates meeting strangers, doesn't even like being introduced to like new teammates when they come and join the team, don't like speaking up in meetings, like all all of these things which are very people related >> might lead you to think that I don't really like people very much. So and and some people definitely thought that about me. That's for sure. Um, but I I I just when I when I was trying to think what am I going to do? I just felt like there was something inside that I've not been using. And that thing could be put to far better use. And I just think that I, you know, I can I can help people. I can benefit people in a way that I've just not not really tried even though I knew that I could. And so then I suppose you start to think about things like purpose and and that kind of thing. And so that kind of became my purpose at that point. And I had to start to think about one what that looks like. Who am I going to be effectively? How how am I how am I going to do that? Um, but also that there's like the business side and then there's the upskilling of myself and and not just from like a oh, I need I'm going to be a mindset coach and I'm going to learn about mindset and I'm going to be a personal trainer. I'm going to learn about that the communication side the the things of just just feeling comfortable in a conversation and >> I remember I used to like I've spent so much time away from my family that even when I'd go back to Middlesborough I' I'd feel awkward in a social family situation and I'm just surrounded by my brothers and their partners >> and I and I feel like super awkward about it and and I and I I you know I no idea where that came from but but it doesn't >> you find that when you were working like and I know this is over a huge period of time but you had talked you know about moving away from home and stuff kind of early on there did you find and I don't know this might be kind of personal so you don't have to like touch on it too much but like did you find that you were uh were you mostly like isolated or did you like find it very easy to make friends and stuff when you moved away and I know this over a course of years. But I I'll kind of touch on some of my experience too that might be might be similar and I'm just curious to hear from you. >> Yeah, I think so. In general quite isolated. I I'm not a I'm not an outgoing person. Um and I think the thing that saved me if you like um was was my fitness and my interest in physical activity. So going to the gym. Yeah. You know I'll I'll chat to someone at the gym. Not not much but like you know I'll say hi and and if you go enough times you you'll see someone regular and yeah fine. Um the biggest thing that saved me from a social perspective was that um I used to play 11 aside football on a on a Saturday and a Sunday and obviously two two different teams there. So you you you tend to be relatively close with with your teammates and and then you go out on the weekend and and and that kind of thing. So I think that's something that saved me. But that's another side of kind of me as a developer and kind of what I try to encourage in other people now is that that's not a side that many people will associate with a software developer and right >> and in actual fact a lot of software developers don't have that side and so if I didn't have that I I would have been very isolated because it's not in my nature to >> make something happen in in that kind of situation. >> That that that makes sense. I I wanted to I wanted to ask this because for me for about eight years out like just after university I basically developed like an extreme amount of social anxiety and I used to be like in university like we'd party and stuff and I was fine with that. I was always like nervous to approach new people just cuz not a lot of confidence and self-esteem. But like if you if I was at a party with my friends like I would be totally fine. uh if we hosted parties, I would be totally fine. But over the course of that eight-year period, it was like the only confidence I had was at work. And if you put me in any social setting, including like you were kind of saying, it was less about visiting my family, but more even about my my friends from back home, right? Like my high school friends, and we're all growing up and kind of going in slightly different directions. But if it was like, hey, we're going to soand so's house, I'd be like, ah, there's going to be people I don't know there. And then I would start to have anxiety about like how do I interact with these people? They're going to say like what are you into? >> And the only thing I can say is work. So unless you're talking about digital forensics and C with me, we're not going to be able to have a conversation. And it was pretty terrible. Like uh so you kind of said the thing that saved you for me. Yeah. Like the gym was a huge part and I ended up getting a dog for myself. Her name's Laya. And I always attribute like Laya being the the the thing that saved me because it gave me something else to be responsible for outside of work. So anyway, I just wanted to share that because I'm sure there's other people too that they might feel like for whatever reason a little bit of isolation software engineers, you know, stereotypically we're not like the most super outgoing people, but yeah, it can look different for everyone. So, um, anyway, not to derail your your story again, I apologize. No, not at all. I think the story just interweavves into god knows what. Can't even remember where we got to. But but it it it's it's a it's a super important point and and as a as I said before like it's something that I encourage so much like even for people to learn new skills outside of tech. And it it doesn't necessarily need to be super useful, but it will be interesting to someone. And so I I when I recognized this, I I started to do various things and and I mean I I I did a lot of running, but then I wouldn't just run. I' I'd also read about running and then I'd read about running training and I I read a book called Chi running, which was just random for me to read. Like who who reads chi running? But it it's super interesting. And then suddenly you find that these things are just coming up in conversations with like random people and I I I spent time studying like body language and again it's super interesting and and then once you start talking to someone about it they're like oh wow oh wow wow and and you can just talk and talk and talk and talk and previously you had nothing to talk about. you, you know, just just what you described. I I've had that with partners in the past where I've gone home from work and I've had a particularly stressful day and and I've tried to talk about it for about 30 seconds until I see my partner's eyes glaze over. >> Yeah. >> And and then I'm one of those people that just stops talking. I I I I don't have any time to like just talk and sort of keep up appearances for the sake of doing it when potentially the other person's not listening. Like it's not that they weren't listening or interested per se. It was just like I don't really know what you're talking about and I can't understand it. And that's and that's fine. But >> right, >> obviously the result of that was like, well, I'm I'm not going to try and tell you that now and I don't have much else to talk about because that's all that's occupying my mind and then that's all just then internal and there's no there's no outlet, right? So yeah, it's I I I I do I do think it's such an important and overlooked aspect of anyone becoming a software engineer is it's of course we need to code to to improve our coding, but if all you do is just sit in front of a computer and code 24/7, like it's only going to take you so far. I and and before you know it, and I'm not even just talking about socially outside of work, before you know it, you're just going to hit a ceiling even in the job because you need that social side. You need to be able to speak to people. You need to be able to communicate. Um and and I I learned that far too late for me in my career. And and when I started to see the difference it made, I kind of looked back and I was like, "Wow, imagine imagine if I knew if I knew this then. Who knows?" >> Well, this is kind of like a it's maybe a good segue into the fact that you were you were saying like when it when you're kind of looking for this change and how you wanted to start approaching things differently, you were talking about purpose, right? And I know you've I think you've mentioned to me before and I don't want to like try to to quote you or something like that, but I think it was along the lines of like if I'm able to start helping people like you can be in this position where you can be the person that like would have helped yourself kind of thing. I don't have a good way to to put that, but yeah, you can you can be the role model and the educator and the the helpful person that you wish you would have had, if that's maybe a better way to say it. >> Yeah. I mean, I think so I'll tell you what, let let me just kind of jump to the end of that story because we're pretty much there and I can drag it out for hours. Um, so yeah, you know, basically I'm a software architect and I go through this random transformation in which I come up with this idea of eventually anyway deciding to be like a mindset coach for software engineers. And I'm looking around and I'm like, you know, are there are there any others out there? Obviously, there's lots of mindset coaches around the world and digging about I couldn't really see any that were actually targeted for software engineers. And I kind of thought, well, on one hand, not too surprising that someone's not waking up every day thinking, I really want to work with software engineers. They're really nice, sociable people. >> Yeah. >> Which is exactly why. Which is exactly why, at least in my head, we need someone like me to do it because as as you were saying there, suddenly, you know, I've I've gone through gone through this kind of like mindset coaching stuff. I've trained to become a personal trainer. Um, and I'm kind of combining all of that. I'm seeing this well-being picture and the impact it has on mental health. And then I've looked back over my career and I think of the many times that I've suffered often internally. So it's it's really interesting actually because I I've actually suffered a lot with with confidence issues and speaking up in meetings and all of those kinds of things. And I've spoken to managers since I transitioned off into the kind of coaching side and every one of them has said would never have known. >> I would never have known. You always you always spoke up in meetings. >> You always said what you needed to say. >> And I was like yeah I did because I recognized I needed to do it >> right. >> But that doesn't change the way I felt inside. doesn't change how how hard that was for me internally >> and that's not the way I want to feel and it's not and and you don't have to feel that way again I know I know now so much of that was what was going on up here >> and yeah again linking back to what you were saying I recognized my career how much I could have helped myself if if id known what I what I know now >> um but but also you know I've worked with many software engineers and I've I've witnessed so many people actually struggle like anything with the stress and the anxiety and and and struggle with it far worse than I ever did. A lot worse than I ever did. And so again, I'm just thinking, well, who's who's in that space? Who's who's helping these people? And uh again it it takes me back to that point where I think okay so I'm I'm this software developer and and this company tells me Mr. Mindset guys is coming in to help us all think great and you know >> boost our performance and feel fantastic and and I'm I'm going to be sitting there thinking who the hell's this guy like what what does he know about what I go through? What does he know about software development and the stress of production releases? like >> exactly >> it I wouldn't I wouldn't have gone for it and and I know a lot of developers that wouldn't either >> and so again that's my reason why we need to fill this space with someone who has a an a career if you like or at least experience in the field of of being a software developer and for me I mean I've I've basically done it for 24 years Um I've done it at various different levels. Um I've felt various things myself. I've seen various things from other people and and I just think that when I then brought that subject with software engineers, we don't really have that kind of who's this guy because it's like oh >> this guy's done what I'm doing and and so he he he knows what this feels like. Um, and and I hear like I sometimes hear like companies say, "Oh, so you know, you're offering to support our engineers. You're offering to do sessions with them, blah, blah, blah." And they're like, "Oh, we already have that." And and I'm like, "Do you who who's doing that for you?" Oh, well, HR do that. You don't have that, >> right? Unless your HR people are have got a career in software development and they're ex software developers and they can really connect with with your team like you don't have it. You're not you're not doing it. There's a big relatability like aspect there where people it's a lot easier to kind of have trust in someone when you can start to say like oh this person like genuinely understands and it's easier I guess like easier proof to be able to say like not just oh I know about this like I've read about it or I've kind of seen it but it's like I've lived it like I have lived it for years. So like you become relatable. People start to go, "Oh, like this person does know what they're talking about." Not just they seem to be able to talk about it in general. Like there's some experience here. So I I can totally I can totally understand that. And even like I you know as an engineering manager especially with new teams and stuff I like to remind people like I spent the first eight years of my management career being an IC at the exact same time. I was coding every day and managing teams. So, I like to be able to say like, you know, we're having difficulty prioritizing stuff and people want to do technical versus these other I'm like, look, I get I get both sides of it. Like, it's, you know, I'm not here to like, you know, be the manager trying to tell you everything to do. Like, I want to relate with you and, you know, get on the same page. And I I've found personally like that helps a lot when people go, oh, like you can think like a a developer still. You're not just like someone who's never done this before. >> Yeah. And and and I think um you know, you're kind of touching on like sort of leadership there as well. And um you know, a I think a lot of what I've learned with my coaching over the years and reflecting on all the coaching sessions of my own career and how I've behaved in in in certain roles throughout my career. Um, you know, it really changes my kind of thoughts and and and approach to to leadership as well. Um, because I've certainly I've certainly done a lot of things that you don't want to do. >> Yeah, we all have. It's >> But but learned for definitely definitely learn from them for sure. Um and and I and I think that's that's another that's another kind of credibility thing to a certain degree um in that even when I'm on LinkedIn sometimes I'll say that I've done some stuff that people don't really say that they've done that like they're like what I kind of I kind of feel like someone has to say it and >> and I'll say it with yeah okay I did do that what a stupid thing to do I didn't realize that at the time I realized That's it now. I wouldn't do that again. But, you know, learning this. >> Yeah. Exactly. And it's like if you're if you're reading this, maybe maybe that's you now. Maybe you're doing that now. And maybe maybe this post gets you to just think for a second. >> Yep. That kind of stuff is super helpful. I think like it's you know you share your experiences and I I think a lot of people there's a bit of a facade with like I don't know like people want to present only their their best self but like you lose authenticity that way and I think people when they see others being authentic and being like hey I messed up or hey this wasn't the best way to do it here's what I've learned like not only do you start to trust them more like they're not just kind of spewing bull crap all the time it's like hey like this is a real person with real lived experiences, it starts to feel better. Um, and kind of I don't want to this might be a bit of an abrupt jump, but when you talk about mindset, I had a conversation with Anna Miller. This is going back almost a couple months now. And we were talking about branding. And one of the things that came up with branding was I was like, "Look, we're talking about software engineers here." Probably the first thing coming to their mind is like, "What the heck does branding have to do with me as a software engineer?" And I don't want to say like, you know, jumping to mindset. People might say, "What is this bull crap? Like we're software engineers. Why does this matter?" But it might seem foreign to them, right? They might not have ever thought about this kind of stuff. So, you know, when it comes to mindset, and obviously you're you have a lot of experience with this. Now, when like how do you kind of approach software engineers to to get it on their radar that mindset is so important versus just letting people kind of continue on doing what they're doing and kind of living in their bubble? >> Um, yeah. Well, to be honest, that's probably one of my biggest challenges. So when I started doing this and I first started talking about it, there wasn't too many people talking about this stuff on LinkedIn and for for a good while I was putting stuff out there and I was just getting nothing back like nothing and I was just like going and going and going and you know it is interesting because it is foreign to a lot of people and it was foreign to me for a long time and it's you know it's it's it's one of those things where there this there's a there's a certain irony about it where maybe the the top 1% of software engineers might actually be interested in it >> and because they can kind of see the you know the performance aspect of it. Um, but the irony in that is that they're already probably the top 1% performing people and actually it can benefit everyone else so much more than it can benefit them. Um, so so that's that's something that you grapple with. But you know the word mindset, yeah, people don't necessarily know what that even means. Um, and and my challenge is is twofold. So it's like engineers, hey, here's mindset. these are the kind of things that it can help you with and um you know how you can kind of benefit from looking into this stuff. And then the flip side of that is is businesses as well and you know how it can help their teams and that's also a conversation that many of them haven't even had or have never even heard of. So when that kind of thing comes up it's like what is this? What is this? Um but you know how how do you go about it? Well, my my approach has been LinkedIn and effectively to build that build that following as as big as I can build it and to shout about all these things as as as loud as I can and as often as I can. And obviously >> I've got my uh I've got my newsletter um the modern software developer which >> I I always find I always find like the the name slightly funny because I can imagine developers being like oh modern oh what he knows these design patterns and these languages and it's like it's got nothing to do with any of that. the the modern software developer knows about his thoughts and his emotions and how to communicate and and all of that side of things, but I don't really give that away too much in in in the title. So, um but yeah, so there there's all of all of that stuff. Um and it again it's probably you know it's a challenge for businesses as well but it's all about awareness and about planting that seed >> and it's for some people you'll talk about mindset I'll talk about a I'll go through a session and I'll talk about some of the foundational bits and they'll be like oh wow oh yeah completely get it and I'll run away with it and they'll oh yeah I can see this I can see that and then other people will just be like, "Yeah." And maybe it doesn't really sink in, but the but the seeds kind of being planted and and then and then it starts to seep into their everyday life a little bit and they find themselves thinking about it a bit more and and that process can it can be weeks, it can be months, it can be years, but it sets something going and sparks an interest. And it might not be in mindset per se. It might be in self-improvement and it might just it might just touch a few other areas of kind of >> improvement and bettering yourself and and those kinds of things sooner or later that all comes back to mindset and >> but yeah go on. Oh, I was I was going to say like so when it comes to like practically speaking because you've had to have many conversations with engineers at this point and I'm assuming there's different themes or like repeat examples of things that come up. So when we're talking about mindset, are there like from your perspective there are there a couple of like I don't know if you'd call them like top themes or top scenarios where you're like, "Oh yeah, we've seen this pattern come up again and like here's how you'd kind of go coach someone through it." maybe something that feels like I don't know for people watching like this could be a relatable experience to you. We can kind of walk through it and be like here's how you know when mindset is not top of mind for you for lack of better phrasing. Like you're kind of living through this experience being like man I guess this is how it is. It kind of sucks but I'm going about my day versus when you start to have more awareness of these types of things you can start to drive a positive change. I don't know if you have a couple of examples like that we could maybe walk through. Um yeah I mean I mean as as far as like common scenarios are concerned it's it's quite it's quite interesting that when I when I do coaching I I always expect it to be very software engineer specific and and quite often it's not which which I find really interesting because I'm I'm really expecting it to be and sometimes I'm expecting someone to just like misunderstand what I'm talking about and they're going to start asking me technical questions but It it actually never happens. But >> how do I optimize this loop in C? And you're like, ah, it's not the the mindset we're talking about here. >> Yeah, pretty much. Um, but I mean, we kind we kind of mentioned we kind of mentioned this a little bit earlier about, you know, where does mindset fit fit in with within software development? And and it's and it's literally everywhere. But the very common things that that come up time and time again, I mean, comparison is is is a massive one. Um, and and everybody does it. Um, and then I mean there's some very big common ones as well. There's burnout and the associated kind of thoughts and beliefs surrounding that, imposter syndrome, which I know you're you're very keen on as well. Um, but if we if we take it maybe a little a step deeper into something a little more tangible. Um, >> the I mean the chord the chord review is is obviously a a very a very popular one. Something that nearly everyone will go through. Um, interestingly, when I first started development, we we we never did chord repeats. Like, okay. For for se for several years, like there weren't any chord repeats, like we just did our work and we did it and we built it, shift it, >> submit. >> Yeah. Yeah. And if we wanted feedback, we'd have to go and ask for it and and that kind of thing. So the So the first time I went into a company and and they're like, "Well, this guy's going to have to look over your code and give it the rubber stamp and say whether it's good enough." I'm like, "Uh, what? Oh my god. Oh, that's that that's that's terrible. That's that's that's an awful situation to be in." Um, and even even now, like it's not that long ago that I had had like my own kind of anxieties around around poll requests. Um, I I remember several years back now, but it was it was I think it was at Aviva actually, and I' I'd created a feature. It grew arms and legs. I changed more code than I intended to change. It probably didn't look how I thought it was going to look. And before I knew it, I had this giant pull request and I was like, "Oh my god, this this is" and I' I'd got to the I got to the point of finishing it. And so I had the kind of relief. I was like, "That's that." And then and then I come to putting out the poll request and and suddenly like my head's just like, "Oh my god, like what what are people going to say about this? What kind of comments am I going to get about this? people are going to think I'm an idiot. Like I don't know what I'm doing. I didn't mean to I didn't mean to do it like this. It just happened. Like that sometimes happens. But I was like super anxious about it and and I delayed actually submitting this poll request for a couple of hours just busying myself pretending I'm doing something else but just constantly stressing about this poll request. That was going to that was stress about the that you were anticipating the feedback, right? Like >> I know I'm going to have to add Joe, Steve, Sally onto this and they're going to have some choice words and like you're just you're living this experience that hasn't actually happened like you've invented it and you're living it now. So Okay. >> Right. Right. And and so I'm anticipating all this stuff that Yeah. As you say, hasn't happened, might never happen. Um, but I'm certainly feeling the effects of it. And then eventually, you know, I I can't delay anymore. I I press submit and I get up from my desk. I walk away and I run off to the toilet and I just sit there for 10 15 minutes. >> Yeah. >> Just because I can't look at the screen. >> Yeah. I can't look at the screen and wait for these comments to come through and and it so stressful. So stress. >> We should pause. How how many years into your career has this been when this situation happens? Like years, right? It's not like >> about 50. >> Okay. So, for folks watching, like if you're like if you're having anxiety in your very first, you know, poll requests and stuff, you're hearing from Rich, this is like 15ish years into his career where he's having an experience like this and going, "Oh crap." Like, I'm having anxiety about this. This is it's a it's a thing that happens, right? So, uh I just I sorry again not to to cut you off. I needed to to call this out because it's like, you know, I think more junior engineers think it's a very unique thing for them. But this kind of thing can continue to happen in your career and this is why mindset can be so, you know, so impactful when you're starting to reframe things. So, I apologize again for the interruption, but 15 years in, right? Like that's that's something Yeah. And so I mean if if we kind of analyze that a bit more and we get a bit deeper into, you know, what what's kind of going on there, it's I I have I have like a model that I share in my coaching and and even and even in my mental health chats to be honest because it's just super useful and and it's basically something that I I say that we all have what I call a well-being processor And that well-being processor basically gets fed thoughts and it kind of it kind of works with those thoughts and part of what it does there is it produces like a cocktail of emotions based on that thought. So what we're what we're seeing is we have a thought that is going to drive a way of feeling. So I'm sitting there about to submit this poll request and I'm imagining ex person who's sometimes a bit mean and doesn't put nice comments on pull requests. I'm imagining, oh that guy is going to comment on my poll request and he's going to say, Rich, you're an idiot. What have you done this for? And at that point, I then start to feel like, oh, oh god, oh, like I'm I'm going to look stupid. Like I'm not the only person who sees that comment. Other people are going to see that comment as well. And he's saying I'm stupid and they're going to think I'm look I look stupid. Like and and so I'm I'm starting to feel like that. >> And so in this in this well-being process that we get our thoughts, they drive our feelings. how we then feel is going to drive our behavior and and the actions we do or don't do. So, in my situation, I'm procrastinating. I'm trying anything I can do to busy myself to not submit this poll request. Um, and and ultimately in the end, I'm kind of pressing the button and and running away. All based initially on on on my initial thoughts. And if we carry that around, you know, the things we do, the things we don't do, they produce a result. And and we think about that result and that goes into the processor and that drives how we feel and that that drives what we do. And we go round and round and round and round and round. And so that's kind of, you know, that's kind of how we're feeling the way we're feeling. and explain some of our behavior based on how we're thinking about a given situation. And I think the thing that a lot of people will struggle with is that the thoughts that enter the well-being processor, I'm not sure how I did that. Um, the thoughts that I made a >> thoughts that enter the well-being processor and they they come from two sources. One is your conscious mind. Therefore, you choose to think it. You actively say, "This is how I want to think about this." And and you choose that thought. And the problem is that a minute amount of the thoughts that are going through our processor are actually conscious thoughts that we choose. And the majority, the vast majority are actually coming from our subconscious mind. And we kind of have less control over that. We >> right >> it very very quickly we control our subconscious mind indirectly. So we've basically trained it on a whole load of data from our conscious mind from our entire lives and that is then kind of making sense of all of that data and it's constantly throwing suggestions at you or it's almost like we're pulling our subconscious saying how should I think about this? How should I think about this? How should I think about this? and it keeps trying to answer that question based on all of this data that we supplied it before. But for many of us, that data probably isn't optimal. >> Mhm. >> It's trained over so many years, right? >> Yeah. And and it probably doesn't represent the context that we find ourselves in or it might not represent the person that we now are or want to be. And so I suppose there's kind of like a bit of a lag or a delay in the thoughts that we're just kind of getting thrown into our well-being processor. And if we're not aware of them, if we don't see them coming, then we just feel them and we do things based on them and we and that drives our results. So our subconscious mind is effectively our our autopilot in these kinds of situations. And so for mindset kind of coaching and just kind of practicing on that kind of thing, it's about recognizing and being aware of the thoughts that are kind of popping up in these situations. And to a certain extent, we recognize that we may not have chosen them directly, >> right? And what's super important is we need to recognize that we don't have to accept them either and we don't have to believe them which so many people do. And if we think about the the two sources and these can keep coming in from our subconscious mind. What we can do at any point is we can override with our conscious mind. So, we might put far fewer in deliberately, but we can recognize something that goes in and we can be like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa. That's not how I'm going to think about this. That's not how I want to think about this. I'm going to think about it like this." And and that's, you know, that's the thought I'm putting in. And that thought is going to generate a very different cocktail of emotions that actually makes me feel a certain way. is going to drive behavior that's going to be far more helpful to me. And and that's the key behind what thoughts should I be putting in? Well, you put in the thoughts that are going to be helpful. And and I say helpful and not positive or negative because that's very subjective. And we might think of a negative thought that goes in, but that might spark someone into thinking, right, I need to do something about this. I'm going to take positive action. Well, that's then a helpful thought for that person, but it might not be for someone else. So, >> you work out what's helpful. >> Exactly. Yeah. And like I think that's a really good point, right, about things are they are subjective. I think something else you mentioned too that's like it's really helpful to think about is of course the way that you framed it like someone listening to this might say like well that's easier said than done and I think from talking with you before like yeah like it is easier said than done but the point is that if you can start by at least recognizing and it's not going to happen every single time a situation comes up say on the pull request situation you might say hey um I want to reframe this right as this feed you're in this situ situation that comes up for all of us, right? Instead of going, all these people are going to say terrible things to me and this is your subconscious mind kicking in, you could start to try and recognize like, hey, like this is happening again. And in the very beginning, that's all that you might get out of it. And that's okay to start, right? It's not like I know you snap your fingers and it's like, yeah, I I know you're it's you're not implying that it is that simple, but we start to work on this. we build awareness and then over time we can start to more proactively like as you said override the thought and kind of retrain. So I think that's super helpful framing and and maybe to kind of to summarize because I know you like we kind of talked through the poll request example. I think that's such a good one because I think anyone can relate to this whether they're very junior doing their first one or if they're like you said 15 years into their career and going crap like here we go again like everyone goes through this but you you know like I said to summarize there's a couple at least a few other things where this comes up a lot right and you mentioned burnout you mentioned uh imposttor syndrome like there are these other things that are constantly going on for for software engineers. And I think you know one of my big takeaways here is that if you can start by at least having some awareness as a very first step that without the awareness you can't start to take any action, right? You're just kind of hoping that things happen to change and progress. But if you can build awareness, you can start to position yourself to be like, "Oh, it's happening. Oh, what's happening?" and you start to do it enough where you're like, hey, I'm catching it in the moment, like, can we can we try something? And, you know, as as you're kind of saying, just build a build that that retraining over time. So, I think that's super cool. I think the, you know, to some people it might seem like a little bit like like, you know, it's a little bit woo woo, like that's kind of out there, but if you start trying to put it into practice, literally after watching this, start trying to think of these situations where you would like to have a different result and if you can start to identify them. No one's promising that it's like, you know, instant change and everything's better, but like you can start to drive change over time. So, um, thank you, Rich. I think that's, uh, I think that's super helpful for people to think through. And, um, you know, I'll follow up with you offline as well, but for you kind of mentioned you have a newsletter. Where can people find you? I know LinkedIn's a huge spot. Where where are the spots to find Rich? >> Uh, LinkedIn is is pretty much where I live. And, um, yeah, as I say, I've got a I've got a a newsletter, the the modern software developer, but I'll post about it on LinkedIn as well anyway. So, you can basically find everything on LinkedIn. >> Cool. Okay. Well, I'll make sure, like I said, I'll have that in the comments. I'll have it in the description so people will have that. Um, Rich, I wanted to say thank you so much for the conversation. Any any final words for the audience as a you know, as a parting thought for them. >> Uh, just just really it's, you know, it's about kind of open-mindedness. This is this is all about open-mindedness and and and a lot of what we do even in software development around building software, what we can achieve, what you know what we can do and and the relationships that we have like if we're open-minded, we we can go places that we maybe haven't been before. And if we're close-minded, we're stuck doing the same things over and over again. So it's um you know it's about it's about trying even as as you said try it try it try it you know see see what happens and and that's to be honest that's how I started because I was exactly what you said what this is a load of rubbish and I was I was talking specifically about affirmations and and I remember saying to myself what a load of rubbish and and then I kind of caught myself and I was like I mean you're you're saying it's a lot for rubbish, but you've never tried it, have you? And I'm like, how? That's a good point. How can I how can I sit here and say this? And and so and so I did. I I had something coming up. I think it was my first webinar that I'd ever done. I was super nervous. Um I had very several weeks before it. And so constructed three or four affirmations around that, around the delivery, around my own competence. And and I repeated them every morning, every evening. And and I honestly felt that it made a massive difference to me and I was like, "Oh, okay. I was wrong." But also, just before I go, I want to know whether I can create that heart again. >> I think you have to do one of these. I think it was Oh, there it is. >> See, I didn't even mean to do it the first time, but got it down. >> It was so It was so natural, too. Just >> Yeah. Well, Rich, I I really appreciate the time. Uh I definitely want to find more time to chat with you and I know like I've said this on the the other call we had like imposttor syndrome is a huge thing for me to talk through burnout as well. I would love to to kind of pick your brain on those topics in the future, but um again, thank you so much for making the time and and sharing your thoughts with the audience. >> Pleasure. >> Awesome. We'll chat later.