The Reverse Podcast Interview - Interview With Alex Lau

Hi, I'm Nick Coantino and I'm a principal software engineering manager at Microsoft. In this video interview, I was joined by Alex Laauo who is the author of Keep Calm and Code On. Now, I've interviewed Alex before on this channel and it's an always an awesome conversation with him, but this approach was a little bit different this time around because instead we did a bunch of different topics and I actually was on the receiving end of some of the interview questions. So, I think this is a really cool style suggested by Alex. We cover a bunch of different ground and I think a lot of the time we're trying to tie it back to different software engineering concepts that I think are especially important for people that are getting up and running in software engineering. I think that you're really going to enjoy this conversation. Sit back, enjoy, and I'll see you next time. One thing to start off, I mean, the first thing we have written down in the list is to be able to to talk about some of your book here. So, I do have a copy sitting right here still, um, which is awesome. So, thank you so much for sending this over again. Uh, I think, you know, I think it's a great book. I know it's been out for a while now. Um, you know, how how have people been receiving it when you're having conversations with them and stuff? Have you seen like themes that are coming up in in your conversations with them? >> Um, it's always interesting to see the reaction from people when they have different levels of experience because really I wrote the book for people that are kind of like in their first couple years as a software developer, maybe like their first five years if I really had to put a number on it. >> Sure. >> Um, so it's interesting because like somebody who's reading it and reading about all the mistakes that I've made throughout my career and what I would do differently. For somebody that's earlier on in their career, it's going to be their first time experiencing a lot of those things. So, I think like maybe more of the ideas will seem a little bit more novel if it's the first time they've encountered them. Whereas like friends that I have or people that have read it that are a little bit more experienced, they kind of like have I don't know if nostalgia is the right word, but like they can resonate with these lessons a little bit more and they'll be like more >> the reaction is a little bit more of oh yeah, I've seen this thing and um you know hopefully they agree with the approach that I've taken and the advice that I try to lay out for how to avoid those kinds of mistakes in the future. Um, but yeah, in general it's been a pretty overall positive reception. It's always nice to see people randomly that I don't know, strangers, posting about it and saying nice things. That's like kind of the best thing you can hope for as an author. So, um, yeah, it's been overall an incredible journey and nice to be kind of I wouldn't say at the finish line, but you know, nice to have it published out there and hearing people's reactions to it. >> Yeah, that's awesome. And I think, you know, one thing you said that is certainly like when I read through it, how I feel where it's like, yeah, it's not quite nostalgia, but it's kind of like, oh yes, like that's that's a familiar thing. And yeah, one thing that I was telling you right before we started recording was that for me there's a a section on multitasking. And um this is uh definitely something that I think um >> it it either resonates with people or it will resonate with people because um things get busy, right? Like we're always trying to do more and I think uh depending on how work and stuff is structured like we find ourselves like h how do I do more? Well, the answer must be to do more at the same time, right? That's how that's how computers do it, >> right? Yeah, it makes sense, right? >> Yeah. So I think like uh for me it's a little bit interesting because as an engineering manager I actually kind of almost like purposefully put myself into some of those pitfalls sometimes. Uh so for example uh I I totally agree with some of your advice in there around like trying to do like not just do everything at once but like you talk about batching, you talk about scheduling. So having like uh not like-minded but similar tasks uh that you can group together, tackle at once. Like I I try to do a lot of that kind of stuff, I think that helps a lot. Um, but then there's other times where because of my role, it's almost like I just I kind of give all of it up just to be able to say, "Okay, if I have team members that are focused on A, B, and C or like partner teams I have to interact with, sometimes I'm like, okay, for me to get the most um effectiveness out of myself, it might not be my own work, but I can have the biggest impact almost just by having the most chaotic day sometimes." And it's a weird it's a weird situation to be in because it's like I realize what's happening but I'm like I think I have to do it. >> Yeah. I I like that you've highlighted the difference between like being an IC and being the person writing code versus being a manager, right? And just those roles inherently have different um qualities that are required of you as somebody who's working in either of them, right? And I like that you touched upon how like I think you use the phrase like what's most important at any given moment. Yeah, that's that's like a lot different between somebody who's writing code and somebody who's managing. So like the people that you're managing, what's most important in a given moment might be to unblock them, right? To like prevent them from having these like burned up cycles in the meantime or like holding patterns that they're in. Um, and I, you know, I haven't really been in that position. So, like I can only imagine from what I've seen while working with managers and like knowing how nice it is when I'm not blocked, >> right, >> to um have like those quick like feedback loops and responses from people. Um, so yeah, I can definitely see how multitasking just takes on different forms depending on which role you're in. And I I absolutely have periods of like deep work like where I have to get either like through design documents or I'm putting other things together and I'm like I need to like get myself blocked off. So that's where um like the batching or scheduling like I'll literally block off my calendar and and have uh you know hour two hour blocks whatever it happens to be uh for a week where I'm like I have to make progress on this. So like >> you know I'm carving that out for myself. But otherwise and like even when that happens sometimes things will come up and I'm like this like I can make a decision like this happens to be more important let me context switch you know maybe I'll have to end up working later or something I'll have to make up the time somewhere else but uh I I feel like in in my role like in how I try to manage like that's just something I accept and I'm kind of okay with it. So >> yeah. Yeah. The thing that I think is almost most important when thinking about this pitfall in particular is making a conscious decision, like you talked about making a conscious decision of, you know, either addressing something right away or prioritizing it for later. I think if you're doing that, >> that's like a huge step in the right direction already. The the times that I feel like multitasking has bit me the hardest is when it's a subconscious decision. When I'm like, "Oh yeah, somebody just pings me on Slack." and I automatically give it top priority even though you know they could wait until the end of the day or later in the week or whenever >> and in the meantime I'm getting sucked out of my flow state and writing code in whatever task I'm in. Whereas like if I'm trying to manage these context switches back and forth, I might be, you know, burning a lot of extra time just by trying to accommodate those seemingly urgent requests that I have like self-imposed the sense of urgency on. You know, it could even be the case that whoever is asking about it is totally fine with it being delivered in another day or a week or whatever, right? I just um the times when I don't clarify that and I give myself this false sense of urgency are the times that I think that >> multitasking has really been me the hardest. Like I said, >> um though I am I'm curious like you mentioned that multitasking looks different from like an IC versus management role. like as you've transitioned into management, what other kinds of things have been surprising lessons that you've learned or that have been different from your time as an IC? >> Yeah, I think I would say like the biggest one for me is um it's almost like the like sense of impact or like I don't know the right word for it necessarily like um what makes me feel like I'm being productive or that or that I've delivered value. Um, I think that's probably like one of the hardest I don't know if I call it like a lesson or like learning, I guess. >> Um, so for me, like early on in my career, like when I was at a startup, I actually became a manager like shortly after starting like full-time employment, but I I was a technical manager. So I I literally for eight years like was an IC and a manager at the same time. >> Sure. >> Um, so I I like to talk about that because it's like I like I was writing code. I was a software developer but I was still managing teams at the same time. So >> um the tricky part about a situation like that or or even doing the transition from IC to management is that >> uh I think as software developers we love you know we're creating things we're writing code we can we deliver something and we're like I did that like my hands help make that reality and um I think like for many of us that feels good. tangible like doesn't matter if it's front end or back end you're like I was responsible for making the thing >> and when I move into management I think this is pretty common for for IC to management transitions it's like you do less of the I made the thing because you're coding less um and I know this is like the forcing function for me that made me realize it towards the end of my tenure at the last company uh I basically was so busy doing other things that I could not code as much >> and I was already the kind of person like it was a startup I was already working like ridiculous hours and stuff not being forced to but just because it was exciting there was lots to do and I was already getting to the point where I'm like even doing that I cannot keep up with coding but what I started to notice was that I was having impact in all of these other areas and by removing my hands from the code almost forcefully because I didn't have time I was like wait I'm still having impact oh wait I'm actually having more impact by not having my hands in the code. So, >> yeah, >> forced me to kind of learn that. >> Yeah, I I can definitely see your point of um this idea that being able to like point to a feature, point to code that you wrote is like equivalent to the amount of work or value you've added to a company, right? whereas it's like I don't I don't really know a good way of kind of getting to this point like this destination that you've outlined where it's like you don't actually realize that you know sometimes the simpler solution is better or the thing that requires less hands-on input from you can be better until you've kind of been burned by trying to go overboard in the other direction, right? like having like too complex of a feature where it's like, "Yeah, we wrote a lot of code, but it didn't change the sales figures in our company or anything like that." Like >> at the end of the day, >> who cares if it's not if it's like this elaborate feature with like really pristine code, but doesn't actually add cool end users. Yeah. Like >> maybe you can make like a steel man argument that like you learned along the way and things like that. You can take that knowledge and apply it forward. Sure. Yes. But um I also think like in that meantime the opportunity cost of like you having worked on something else and still learning those same sorts of lessons um is probably what's more valuable >> from a business perspective probably. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a definitely interesting transition to kind of go through that kind of thing. And I would say that when I talk to other managers that go from IC to to management, one of the things I find that they struggle with is like like, hey, like I still like I know I could jump in and help the team if I go like code this. And it's like it's not that that's wrong to do, but at some point you have to start realizing like how do I enable the team? So if you realize, hey, that the team is falling behind. Um, and it would be helpful if there were more hands in the code. It's like, okay, do you need a bigger team? Do you need to rep prioritize? Do you need to readjust how much the team can get done? Like it's almost like maybe the solution isn't just putting your hands back in, but having a step back and how do we look at things more strategically and like long term to like enable the team to be effective. >> Yeah. Yeah. I like that a lot. Takes a lot of self-control or at least a shift in mindset to kind of get there. >> Yeah. And it took me years. So like when I talk about this, it's not like, oh, it's like it's simple. It's like no, it took me like that eight-year period where I was like, oh, holy crap. like that's how >> yeah I I also resonate with that idea of like learning lessons the hard way and you know sometimes I'll be working with people that are more uh that are earlier on in their own career and journey and whenever they're I don't know more mature in their outlook for things I'm like wow you have it figured out not totally but like you have x y and z figured out so much faster than I did and like I'm both glad for you and also jealous in some ways. Yeah, I've definitely seen that happen a lot where it's like uh and the especially with people I manage, I'm like I'm proud and I'm like excited for them and at the same time I'm like I'm a little envious because like that took me way too long but good for you. >> Yeah, but again that's a testament to you as a manager I'm sure as well. >> Yeah, it's all learning, right? So it's pretty cool. Uh but no, I think you know, one of the cool things about having this book nearby, right, is that that I can jump in uh and it's always like if I need a reminder about some of the things that are going on, there's I think there's lots of lessons. And it's I think another nice thing about the format, too, is it's not like it's not like uh overwhelming, right? It's not like I go to pick it up and I'm like, "Oh, I'm going to have to dive into like a 40page chapter on like to to get some type of takeaway from it, right?" Um, I like the fact that it's more concise, that there's actionable things, there's lessons, and uh, like I said, I can at any point I could pick it up, turn to a page, and be like, "Okay, like there's something that's valuable here that will resonate in some capacity with me." So, >> yeah. Yeah. Thanks so much for touching upon that. That was definitely a conscious decision. Um, in the intro of the book, I talk about how it's not necessarily meant to be read from uh, beginning to end in order. It's uh one of those things where you can read it in any order you want. Though I say that and I know myself reading the book would always prefer to at least read it from start to finish uh the first time around. But again, I I did want to structure each chapter with like making it very clear where both the lesson that I'm trying to outline is as well as like the steps to kind of avoid those same mistakes in the future going forward. >> Yeah, it's a it's a great resource. So, I love having it nearby. So, thanks again. Thanks again. >> Yeah. Cool. Do we want to well move on to the next sort of question in the list? >> Yeah. Yeah. This one is the reverse interview. I wanted to ask you about you have this project Brand Ghost. Um I'm curious about how I mean lots about it really, but like like what inspired you to work on it in the first place? Like what kinds of learning lessons have you had along the way of kind of working on this project on the side as well? >> Sure. Yeah. So, um, Brand Ghost is my system that I started putting together for for content creation and and specifically around posting content online and the I guess if I step way back like when I was doing my content creation originally, it actually started in 2013 and it was just a blog. It was my dev leader blog and it was a learning in public thing to be able to talk about becoming a manager. So, it was like, hey, like if I'm going to do this, I don't know anything about management. I'm going to write articles about what I'm learning and try to like, you know, uh I would do like almost like an aggregation kind of thing where I'd go read things, summarize them, and and post out blog articles. >> Very cool. >> And no one read it. Um, and I think at the time I was like, hm, like I'm doing all of this work, but like no one's reading it. And then I think I was kind of looking at it maybe the wrong way. And I should have personally and like I I have a huge regret for not sticking with it. But I think if I just would have stuck with it and said like this is how I'm going to learn >> and that's the motivation that things would look very different today. Um I don't know what that means actually. I just think they would look very different. So um >> I think I started looking at it like I'm creating content and no one's reading it. So why am I creating the content? like why don't I just find a different way that I can learn and kind of make it through stuff. >> Yeah. When when you were writing those articles, were you like posting them to Twitter or some kind of other social media? >> Yes. So, I was like writing them on my blog and then sharing them out and then I was like but no one's like like nothing's happening with this. So, uh and it takes like I find even today like writing a blog article takes a lot of time. You've you've written a book so I think you understand like the writing. >> Yeah. And there's the parallels of, you know, you can have the best message in the world or the best lessons in the world, but if you're not able to to share them with people, like it's it's kind of all in vain, right? In the same way, you know, there's that interesting parallel between having a really great feature in software, but if your end users like if they don't actually use it, like again, what value does it ultimately adding at the end of the day? >> Yeah. And I think, you know, like I was saying, I think for me it would have been good to stick with it for my own learning. >> Sure. But I I think the the motivation to only do that for self-learning I think just wasn't there. So um where I'm going with this is at the start or the end of 2022 or start of 2023 I said I want to get back into creating content. I've seen other people that have kind of stuck with it for the past like few years. >> Maybe that's three to like five years. and they're like they're when I look at what they're doing, all of the metrics that I can see or all my perception, they look very successful. That doesn't mean like, oh man, they're they're millionaires, like they never have to work again. But I'm like, they're they probably have some some type of income from it, which is awesome. I think that's super cool. Um, they have an audience that they're educating. They're talking about topics they like. Um, for me, I'm not I don't want to it's not like a like I don't want to be like a celebrity or something like that. Even though it seems it might seem weird to people like I'm making YouTube videos, I'm you see my face, but if I can if I could make uh content and completely hide myself and just deliver messages. If I thought that that was a more effective way to do it, I would because I don't care that people see or know me. I just want to share information. So, I was like, "These people are doing it, but I think that their secret is not actually a secret. It's just that they keep doing it." >> And that's not to try and say that I don't think that they have talent or their content isn't good or they're not smart or something. None of that. I think they can have all of those things or some of those things, but their secret weapon is that they just keep doing it. and I said, >> I couldn't keep doing it before, so how am I going to keep doing it this time? >> So, I made a commitment to myself that I was going to keep pumping out YouTube videos, >> um that I was going to try writing blog articles and stick with it. But the problem is the same problem I had before. I can't keep up with posting it. So what I did and this is how brand ghost came to be was that I would start saying I'm going to keep posting this stuff like um you know get a post out per day on on LinkedIn let's say okay now I'm doing that but I want to share it to Twitter as well and then I'm like oh but it's a pain in the butt because like as simple as it sounds like to copy and paste a post >> it's still extra steps >> and then I'm like okay well if I'm posting it to LinkedIn I should post it to Facebook as well and then like >> the problem that ended up happening was that every time I wanted a new platform to try and get more eyes, it's extra steps. >> Mhm. >> So, what I was doing was saying, okay, how can I get automation in place so that when I'm posting to one spot, it posts to the others and then would start building that out. I would get more time back because now I'm not, you know, trying and it's a small amount of time, but every day >> and would keep doing it and then would get more time back and then I would go add another platform. So, I'm doing that manually and then I'm like, okay, this is working. how do I automate it to get more time back? So, Brandos is a bit of a journey in terms of like sp like basically overloading myself with uh how I'm spending time creating and posting content and then going okay now I see the pattern how do I automate it? Um and that let me scale my own content from at the beginning of 2023 I was trying to do three YouTube videos uh a week and a blog post uh a month. I ended up getting up to six blog posts a week, plus a newsletter article, plus three YouTube videos, plus two live streams, plus posting to 12 social media platforms every single day. And that's because of Brand Ghost. >> Wow, that's wild. Those those figures at the end, um I mean, anybody who has like thought about writing a blog or started writing a blog or started making posts, like you know just how much work it is. like it can seem easy from the outside looking in, but to your point of both like consistency and momentum and having those behind you and being able to start forming habits around that, that makes all the difference in the world. So, >> the habit part is like >> that's cool. I actually did want to ask you like just how you get so much stuff done. So, you have brand ghost, but I feel like every time I'm on, you know, LinkedIn, I you're like doing a LinkedIn live or I see like some posts from you or like a new YouTube video pop up and I'm just like, "Wow, this is this is only one guy. Like, how is he getting so much stuff done?" Pardon me. Yeah. Um, >> but I think a lot of it's because like if you're in content creation, um, you probably see how much time you have to spend either like writing things, posting them, scheduling them, like >> a lot of these things. And I, for me, a lot of the a lot of the manual pieces I've cut out, right? So, >> um, so I I ended up getting like a video editor for YouTube at one point. And it's it seems like a like a silly kind of move if you look at it on paper because um I do three I try to do three YouTube videos a week. It costs me money to have them edited and it costs me money now because he's doing my thumbnails. I lose lots of money from YouTube every month. It's not like a it's not like a a revenue generating thing. I think I make $3 a day at the time of recording this uh from YouTube and I probably spend like $500 to $1,000 a month in editing. So, it's just it's losing money. But I look at that like, okay, if I've been able to sell courses on the side and I can do something to supplement that, I would rather put that money back into my YouTube channel so I can create content. >> But what I what I've done is I've essentially reached a point uh and I should mention like I this is not like a a bragging thing or anything. I'm at a point in my life where at least I can I I can safely do this without like putting like my my sort of family at risk financially or something, right? >> So, I wanted that wanted to to mention I'm not just like, hey, I'm blowing money on this, but it's something where I'm like if I see this as like an investment and and a hobby >> that I I have uh you know, money going into this that I feel okay about, but I've been able to get that time back, like the the editing time. I like I'm not good at editing, but I had to try it. I had to practice it. But I'm like it's it's time consuming. So if I outsource that now I get time back. So I look at Brando itself as something like I out like I don't schedule content. >> So I this is the other thing that I should mention. Not only does Brand Ghost post across the platforms for me, but I don't like I don't go every Sunday and set up my post for the week. >> I never have to do that again. I basically just create content, drop it into Brand Ghost. I can and I not that I would do this, but I could literally walk away from all of social media for a year and it would post every single day and you might not even realize it's repeating anything. >> Wow, that's amazing. Yeah, I I actually remember you went on a vacation a few months ago and you were still like posting throughout and I remember I had asked you about that and you were like, "Oh yeah, that's all just Brandos." >> Yep. I had 150 posts in the week across platforms and I was on vacation the whole time. So was pretty cool to just be able to walk away. So when you're observing like, oh, how is so much getting done? It's because those things that you know take time. A lot of them I have found ways where I'm like, I'm just I'm not doing this myself now or it's automated. >> Sure. Yeah. It's also like I know for me personally there's like certain things I don't mind doing as much and certain things that are a lot more energy draining and >> you know um to your point about not just paying for everything because you can pay for things but like once you're in like a state of like relative financial stability like that becomes a much more relevant question I think right like even both with content creation but even just like things around the house where I'm you know, I never thought I would pay somebody to rake leaves for me, for instance, right? Like I came from a, you know, relatively modest upbringing and like the idea of doing that was wild to me for the longest time. But now I'm at this point where I'm like, which would I rather have like time with my family or, >> you know, being able to say that I I did the leaf raking myself or whatever, right? whatever thing may be timeconuming and energy draining for you. >> Yeah, I 100% have a very similar experience where it's like we've been able to and again like you know I'm not it's it's just like I feel very fortunate to be in a position where I can do stuff like that. But >> yeah, >> it it was like this decision to say like to have someone come by, you know, every couple weeks to help clean the house. >> Yeah. >> In my head I'm like why would I pay someone to do that? Right. But then I'm looking at the time it takes the sort of the the outcome that they provide. And then I'm going like, but if I'm thinking about my wife and I, I'm like, that's that's literally just time that we get back, >> right? >> And now we're at this point where I'm like, I actually it makes way more sense to have that paid for. And it's not like, you know, it's not like it's thousands of dollars when they're coming by. So we're looking and being reasonable about it and then going, but we get time back for that. And that's actually a great spot to be in. >> Yeah. Yeah. And when you're, you know, old and gray, you're not going to be looking back and being like, "Man, I wish I clean the house way more or anything like that." Right. >> Thank Thankfully I saved like saved those extra few dollars by not >> Yeah. >> Exactly. But, you know, like at at different points in my life, like that absolutely would not have made sense. Like, and I would be like, I'm going to and even if I was looking at it from like a I don't know, like purely spending or saving perspective, I might say, so say I was single, was not with my wife, and I'm like, okay, well, I could pay someone to do this. I might say, well, I'm not like I'm just losing money now, and like I'm not making more money to like fill up that that gap. So, like, >> right, >> doesn't really make sense. I might as well do it myself and I will come out with like net more money. >> Um, but now it's like, okay, well, I could actually go make an argument that even if it wasn't for more time with my wife, it's like I could actually I could go create choruses. I could go do something that actually does help generate revenue, >> right? >> So, >> yeah. And to your point about hiring an editor for YouTube earlier, like there, you know, there's always like this time scale of upside as well, right? like if you um if your channel just like explodes in popularity, it's not like a a linear relationship to like how much you're paying your editor, right? Like it could tomorrow overnight just like really boom and um I'm sure you've like kind of factored that into your thought process as well. >> Yep. So it's you're you're exactly right. So it's not um it's not like if that were to take off that all of a sudden it's like okay well everything now scales with it at the exact same rate and it's it's yeah there's a lot of factors that >> yeah and the idea of like betting on yourself I think is is really awesome too where it's like you're in control of your path and like you're working on things that you're uh you know truly passionate about and trying to help other developers. So yeah in that regard like seems like a very worthy undertaking. >> Yeah, it's enjoyable. like I feel good for from doing it and uh you know there's an added benefit that if it has revenue generating opportunities like that's that's great too but I'm I'm checking our list of questions and I think this is actually maybe a good segue because one of the things that you said that you've been thinking about a lot recently is personal finance for developers. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Kind of touching on time and personal finances. So >> yeah, I guess now would be the time to mention that this is not official finance advice, but more of entertainment p purposes, >> but I know like I I don't know how deeply you want to hear about my own personal finance journey. But I will say that one regret that I have is not just learning the basics of personal finance for earlier on in my career in the same way that I wish I had learned about >> other money related topics like negotiation or like you know salary negotiations things like that just because I feel like the tradeoff between how much time you put into it and how much value you get out of it is like insane because you can like spend I don't know a few hours, a few dozen hours of learning about these things and have lessons that will be valuable for the rest of your life and pay like crazy amount of dividends down the road, especially once you learn about concepts like compound interest or things like that. And the idea of trying to start earlier and, you know, understand that it's not just like I I'd be curious to hear about your journey in personal finance. Like I know for me I I thought that it was kind of like you hire a financial planner and they like know some secrets about stocks that you don't know. Um and then they're able to help you like grow your money a lot and it's like sort of kind of gambling or uncertain in ways. But um yeah, the more I've learned about it, the more I'm like, "Oh no, that's not the case at all." And like there's things like index funds that are a lot safer investment and um yeah. >> No, no, it's it's it's all it's really cool because I think there's so many different facets to to like where to even start with like any of the personal finance stuff. And I think just you know at a super super high level I think uh I think your point about you put in you have like disproportionate returns on a little bit of time learning this stuff. You don't have to be an expert. I'm certainly not an expert, but I have spent some time trying to go, okay, >> like you said, if I put some time into this, you know, the the output over the rest of my life will be much greater. And I think something I've observed uh kind of interesting going into big tech, especially with people that are like new grads or like kind of like their first job, there's a lot of stuff that they get introduced to that like they've just never been taught or they don't understand. And I don't blame them. It's not like I'm like, "Oh, haha, you don't know this." It's like Oh man, like this is actually like a almost like a missed education opportunity or something to to help align people. So things like, okay, so there's a 401k and people are like, "Okay, I know that's I know that's for retirement, but like >> I don't know. Or is that a scam?" And like, "Oh, well there's matching. Should I do that?" Um like the even something as simple as that, it's like people don't really understand that or uh with big tech companies and other companies where there's um like stock, right? Like what what does that mean? What are the tax implications of that? Like, should I just be getting the stock and selling it to get the money? Should I never sell it and hold it the rest of my life? Like, >> right. >> What? like people that aren't thinking about these things are um what's you said it earlier. It's almost like you don't want it to be like a a subconscious accidental thing where you're just kind of like it's happening. But if you can make conscious decisions about uh how your how your money is being spent or invested or saved, then I think that you're you're way better off in terms of making progress there. >> Yeah. And actually, one thing that made me more resistant to learning about personal finance earlier on, like in my early 20s, just out of college, was that I didn't want to be like consumed by this idea of money and like just be like super greedy. And I thought that if I was like, I don't know, it's weird to say. I thought if I educated myself about personal finance that I would be like obsessed with money, right? And um the thing that I've realized in the meantime is that by making that decision to not learn about it, you're still like you're still making a decision either way. Like either either you're going to be strategic about money and wealth and investments or you're not going to and you're still going to have to like, you know, in the same way that like not forming a budget is still a budget of of some >> there's a budget there somewhere. Yeah. >> Yeah. Exactly. And I'm I no longer view money as just like this thing to kind of like hoard and have the most of by the time that I die. I view it as like >> a form of basically like freedom, right? Like the more you have saved up, the more opportunities you have to explore other things in life, right? Like the idea that we were talking about earlier of like hiring a cleaner or even like hiring somebody to rake your leaves, like that gives you freedom to do other things, right? That's absolutely it. Um, and I I like that word freedom, right? Because it's um you get to make decisions, right? You can say like, and I I always bring this up when people talk about retirement and stuff because I if I've talked to financial planners, one of the things is like, oh, when tell me your plans, like when would you like to retire? And it's like the thing about that is like I like to work. So, I don't I don't know what that actually means. But when I try to answer that question, it comes back to freedom. And I like being able to think about this like I would like to have enough money that I don't have to I don't have to go to work, >> right? >> I like to work, but if I don't have to go to work, that means that I now have freedom to work on anything that I want. And to me, that's like the ultimate like goal is to be able to say like like it's not that I'm going to stop working because I genuinely enjoy creating things and building stuff and like that that's not going away. But now I have this opportunity to say like, you know, if it's not Microsoft someday and it's something else, if it's my own thing, if if I if it's either of those and I'm like, well, I just want to take months off and not have to do anything, then I have that freedom in my life to be able to say like I can. Yeah. And who wouldn't want that, right? Like who wouldn't want to be able to work on the things that they are truly, you know, motivated by and inspired by and passionate about. >> Yeah. you don't have to worry about the money component of it, right? Because it's like I think sometimes we and not like it's a bad thing. It's like I I like X or I like Y, but and uh Z I don't like as much, but like it actually is going to pay way better, so like it makes sense that I, you know, I kind of like Z still, so that's fine, but like it pays way better, so I'm just going to do it. You don't have that interfering with anything now, >> right? Yeah. Yeah. That's it's a nice lens to view like wealth through is like what freedom does it buy you and like what things would you do if you had more flexibility and more freedom at your disposal and you had mentioned uh like negotiations right so this might be like kind of like a helpful or u I don't know like something interesting for for viewers and listeners to kind of think through but um I know that when I was applying to jobs and like getting offers and stuff this idea of negotiating was like awful. I am I don't like if I had to buy or sell a vehicle that's super awkward to me cuz someone says a price and I'm like okay man like just >> negotiating it down even further against yourself. >> Um and like for I remember buying my first home and uh talking with the realtor and he's like so like what are you thinking like where do you want to go in at? And I'm like dude I have no idea what I'm doing. Like I have never even thought that I would own a home. Like what am I like you you tell me what to do. >> Sure. So, a lot of this kind of stuff around negotiation, um, this is one of these things I have to be careful about how I say it. I don't want to say I am bad at it because I'm just not experienced at it. So, if I keep saying I'm bad at it, I will perpetually be bad at it. >> But, um, it's uncomfortable for me and I'm inexperienced. I need to work on it. >> But the same thing with, uh, you know, getting a job offer. Someone says, "Here's the salary, here's the stock, like here's your compensation package." How many times have I negotiated a compensation package? Like not enough to be confident in doing it. Um, so I I can recall when I was doing research about a because I I spent a lot of my career at a startup. >> Mhm. >> I'm not experienced at doing this kind of stuff. So I can recall doing the research and being like, everyone says do not take the offer, always negotiate it. There is always room to negotiate. And I can remember this feeling of being like, "This is so uncomfortable. Like, I don't want to do this because >> isn't everything at risk now?" And I can remember taking that plunge and being like, "Nope." Like, "Here's my counter." And I remember the recruiter being like, "Oh." And like he's like, "Okay." And then like had to go away for a couple minutes and was like, "Okay, no problem." >> And I was like, "Really? >> If it was ask could you have gotten even more, right?" But yeah, I I always joke and say that and without disclosing figures, it's not like it's ridiculous or anything, but that is the most amount of money per minute I've ever made in my life. >> Yes, exactly. >> It's incredible. >> Yeah. And I mean, first off, congrats to you for making that way. So, in this case, you were talking to a recruiter over email, on the phone. >> This would have been like Yeah. So, I had gone through the interview rounds and stuff. So, this would have been over the phone for this um for that final like negotiation part. >> Gotcha. I think one piece of advice I would give to people if they're like nervous about negotiating, which is a very natural feeling. I definitely have that same sense as well as I was like first looking for jobs is I know for me personally, I'm like oddly more comfortable with the idea of negotiating things other than just money. So, like if there's vacation days and you get three weeks of vacation, could you bump it up to four or things like equity, >> which I mean is kind of just this proxy for money hopefully ultimately one day, but it feels easier for me mentally to kind of like negotiate that instead. Or, I don't know, an education budget. If it's like, you know, $1,000 for, you know, education stipen, could you bump that up to 2,000? If you fully use that, that's you making another $1,000. a year, right? >> Yeah. >> Um, and what company isn't going to want you to be more educated, too, right? Like I think that the fear that I would have if I'm kind of trying to relate to myself and my mentality earlier on in my career is that somebody would be so offended that they would just rescend an offer. Right. Right. >> And I think that first off, that's not too likely to happen if you're not if you're asking for something reasonable. Right. If you're asking for like three times the salary they're offering you like of course they're going to be offended by that. But if you're asking for something like in the realm of possibility and it's like uh you know a smaller percentage of increase in salary kind of like what you were talking about earlier like if a company does resend their offer it's a sign of a bad company in in general right? >> Yeah. And as long as you're being kind of like respectful about it, then I think that it's, you know, it's part of the reality of, you know, hiring and negotiating. That being said, there's probably times for individuals when they're better suited to negotiate, right? If you already have a job, if you're further on in your career, >> um, you're probably more likely to be more comfortable taking a little bit more of that risk. Whereas if you're trying to break into tech and it's your very first job, um that's really important to get that first job and that experience, right? And maybe you don't want to take any chances whatsoever. And that's that's totally fine. There's opportunities down the road for that. >> That that's a super important part, right? It's like it's it's not that's not where you have to stay for forever. If you're like, "Oh, no." You're listening to this and you're like, "I didn't negotiate." It's like that's fine. Like it's not it's not the end of the world, right? like the the reality is most people will move between a bunch of jobs in tech, >> right? >> And that's okay and that's not a bad thing. And that's actually one of the the other questions on here. Um and maybe that's kind of worth jumping over to >> um >> is this idea of like you know you can go between other jobs and if you uh you know if you didn't negotiate at the first one and you weren't comfortable, you might not even be comfortable at the second one, right? Like the point is that you have these other opportunities in your entire career to be able to do that, >> right? Yeah. And I think that like viewing it as maybe just like a chance to kind of like play around and experiment and like improve the skill that in in your instance like you you know that there's room for improvement, right? Like >> you're not going to have other opportunities other than going through and doing the thing. Yeah. >> Um, so like I know that that's helped me as I try to think about things like negotiation where it's like kind of the scary kind of the scary thing to me, >> but also like what better chance to like try to grow as a person and like my skills. Like you don't get to be a great negotiator without doing the thing, right? >> Yeah. That's why I was trying to say like I I need to stop telling myself like, oh, I'm just bad at it. It's like I'm just un not practiced at it. It's the reality >> to so many things in life, right? Not just negotiating. >> Yeah. I think when we were talking before like one of the things was like public speaking, right? Like >> Yeah. Exactly. >> That's something that literally just from making YouTube videos and stuff like I had said even I think for like the first year of making YouTube videos I was like ah like no I'm still like not okay. And then this year I went to go speak in Dallas at a like a small like meet up but still like got on I flew in >> I like paid for my flight. I flew in and like did a presentation on a stage to to strangers and was like, >> "Yeah, >> wait, I just did that." >> Like, >> that's awesome. >> I'm no longer terrified about it. So, but it's because I spent like I I think over the past two years I put out almost like 450 YouTube videos. >> Wow. >> Across like two different YouTube channels. Um, and it's just like just practice, right? Like that's that's all it has been. >> It's muscle. You're exercising that muscle and Um, yeah. I mean, how many dozens or hundreds of hours of content have you created by that point? And so, you're just used to doing it like the first time you're doing anything for many different skills or activities or whatever, like it's just new to you. And of course, it's going to be scary. But like I think um our friend Brian Jenny on his podcast, he talks about like the first couple times you're doing something, it's going to be scary. If you're doing it for the hundth time, it's almost certainly not going to be scary because you're just so used to it. you got like the muscle memory or you know generally what to expect for different things and yeah that that experience makes all the difference in the world. >> And by that time too like if you were to reflect on your first time the quality or depending on what you're doing like the quality the quantity whatever it is but almost guaranteed you're going to be significantly better at every single metric. So like >> Right. Yeah. >> Just takes practice. >> Yeah. And again, that t ties into what you were talking about before with consistency and just like doing things over and over again. And I think like one other key component of that is being able to kind of like self-reflect and look to improve because if you're doing things, you know, 100 times and you're getting just a little bit better each time, the difference between the first time and the hundth time to your point is going to be day and night. >> Yeah, absolutely. So the the repetition helps, right? Um, but >> I I did want to circle back to your question about um job hopping. Is that a red flag uh for résumés or is it just the reality of the market? Like where do you stand on that? What's your take? >> I think it's just the reality. Um, and I if I were to take some extreme examples, like if someone's resume had 10 jobs on it and every job was like, you know, like one to four months or something, I might be like, it's not even like it's a red flag, but I would be curious. I would be like, that's just it's an an anomalous pattern. Like, yeah, I'm just curious about what that means, right? Like I don't know. Um, and I actually like if you were to look at if I had my entire work experience on paper, I had six internships that were four months long that were separated by four months. So if I had my whole work experience, I actually would have a weird pattern like that. >> Sure. >> So it's not that it's bad. Um, and I'm giving you a bit of an exaggerated kind of um, >> timeline to look at, but >> it is relevant. >> Yeah. And it's and that's a real thing. So if we were to I don't know. I don't even know what's considered job hopping in terms of like time at a company. Is it one to two years or something or like >> Yeah, I would say less than two years is when I think about this uh the concept in general. >> And honestly, I think a lot of tech is especially larger companies. I don't want to say they like they're not forcing this by any means, but I think that they're they've set themselves up in a way that kind of like um almost like encourages it to some degree. I think the way that there's like compensation packages like hey you you know you get this job offer at this big tech company and I I'm saying big tech it doesn't have to be like fang or something but you know tech company and they have uh sign on stock they have cash bonuses and stuff like if you're someone who's like thinking about their personal finances they're trying to uh think about their self-worth and like they're putting their time into something and like I want to be fairly compensated. I think that the way that a lot of this is structured encourages people to say literally I you could love your job and you're like that job over there could also be a great opportunity >> and if I go there I might make an like just by signing up I might make an extra like 50 grand this year might make an extra 100 grand this year >> right >> like why would I not >> yeah how can you blame somebody at that point too right >> um yeah I think there's like some interesting parallels between that and uh your how you describe negotiation, right? Obviously, there's like some overlap in just the material itself. But if you're thinking about it in terms of like how much time and effort you put into it to how much compensation and salary that yields, like how much are you making just by entertaining other job offers? Like if you're making another 50 grand a year, that's huge for almost everybody, right? >> Yeah. So like for me it's not I don't look at those things like red flags necessarily cuz I I'm sitting there and going like I could I could literally justify why someone would do that. >> I think that when I reflect on this idea of job hopping I have like a sort of like a caution that I put out to people and it's not that it's a red flag for me uh necessarily. It's more that like what the goal is the job hop. So, I think with there's a lot of content creators that will say like, "Hey, look, I've been successful getting to senior level or some level and I did it in x amount of time and here is the the shortcut path to doing it." And it's not that that is inherently wrong to share like their journey about how they did that effectively, but I think the thing that gets me nervous is like um a hyperfocus on job hopping strictly to level up. >> Yes. >> Because when that becomes the focus and again if I exaggerate the scenario, right? So you spend one to two years and just to make up levels to because every every place is different. So starting starting at level one and you're like I'm here for one to two years and or no not even let's say level one because it's the very beginning you're just a beginner you stay there for a year and you entertain another job and they're like hey yeah we would hire you in at level two no problem like you you've been work you've already been employed by one person like that's fine we'll bring you in at level two. So you go to level two and you get a salary bump and you're like this is great. So now you stay there 1 to two years and maybe it was going to take you 1 to two years to get your promotion to level three, but now you're going to job hop in potentially half to 100% of the time and likely get a salary bump because you're going to another company. But when you keep trying to focus on this accelerated path, the thing that makes me nervous is that you haven't actually spent the time building the skills. So you on paper it looks awesome because you're like look I'm this level now and I make all this money and then I I go okay great now can you show me how you operate at that level and they're like like I don't know I actually haven't done anything I'm exaggerating obviously but the that fear of like are you now at a level where for you to be effective at that level you actually need to take a step back like you need to be dleled so that you can do a good job. >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that that's a very um interesting example because to me somebody like of course there are people who are doing basically a version of what you're describing, right? And to me it kind of seems like it's just that they're focusing on the wrong thing. It's kind of like focusing on level and compensation as the end all beall for a job. Whereas like I think like many things in life, it's more about balance. Like of course you want to be fairly compensated and fairly leveled at companies. And of course you want to move from company to company for no other reason than just to have more exposure to different teams and see how different teams operate, getting to work with other people. Kind of just like broadening your own skill set and getting more exposure to different teams, right? But like anything, if you don't have that balance and you're just like only hopping so that you can increase your level and your comp, then you're probably forgoing like these other factors that are important, at least to me and to many others, I'm sure as well about like, well, you know, do I want to work with different technologies on different teams with different people for certain domains that I'm really interested in? Like I really like working in edtech because I like the mission behind it. Um, you know, if I was just focused on making the most money and getting the highest level, I wouldn't be where I am today. I would be like trying to kind of like you were saying, like optimize for um the system around hiring and leveling. And I think that that while while yes, it will serve most people well in the short term, I don't think that that's the right long-term play. And frankly, even like short to medium term, I don't think that's the right thing to do either for a lot of people depending on what their goals are. >> Yeah. And I mean, like, you know, I'm not I'm not here saying like I don't want people to earn more money or, you know, level up in their career. I absolutely want people to be able to do that, but not at the expense of like putting themselves into a position where they're like, I I actually cannot operate effectively at this level. If you if you're doing this and like so say someone's listening or watching to this and they're like, "Nick, I've been able to do that and I'm still crushing it at work." >> Hell yeah. Like good power to you. >> Good for you. Like that's not that's not what I'm trying to uh you know, sort of caution against here. I would say if you kept doing that to a point where you're like, I'm going to work and like uh people talk about imposttor syndrome, but it's no longer imposter syndrome. You are an imposttor because you you cannot do the things at that level. That's the thing that I'm cautioning against. That's all. >> Yeah. Yeah, that totally makes sense to me. I don't know if you're out there listening and you feel differently, I'd love to hear from you. >> Yeah, for sure. So, again, I'm not trying to even for the people that share those journeys and stuff. I don't I don't think they're doing it maliciously. It's not they're they're saying I've had success doing this and I think that that's great. There's lots of stuff you can learn from it, but um I think Alex, you said it really well, like kind of think about what your goals are, right? So, um you know, if you can get more money, that's great. But ultimately, if you're, you know, uh, if you're not able to kind of, uh, grow in your career and do better at being a software engineer, if that's not your goal, then like that's not your goal. But if you, >> right? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that's very eloquently put. Um, do you think we have time for like one more? >> I think we could we if I got time if you want to jump into one more. >> Yeah, that sounds great. Is there one that you are looking at this shared list of ours that you think is most interesting? Uh, not one that's necessarily jumping. I know I kind of jumped ahead. Um, AI. >> Okay, you go. >> AI. Yes, let's do it. >> Okay. I I didn't know if you were going to say something, so I interjected. Sorry. >> No, that's great. Um, maybe we should start with just our general experience with AI tools. What have you used so far? What have you been impressed by, disappointed with, uh, you think has a lot of potential in the next couple years? Sure. Yeah. I think uh you know kind of at the beginning for me uh obviously like chat GPT like most people. So that's been I know in the beginning with that was just like it was fascinating to see like holy crap there's something that can like talk back to me in like sentences. Uh so I know there's been stuff like this for a long time but not to this level cuz I'm trying to think back even when I was a kid there was like bonsai buddy and stuff but it was almost like preanned like messages and chat. I don't even know if people know what Bonsai Buddy is. It was like an instant messenger add-on kind of thing, but it's like it it was like a facade that it had some type of intelligence, right? And it's just because it uh it had a voice. >> So, it was like, oh, it's speaking, right? But when we have things like chat GBT, uh to me that's been incredible. Uh the really early days of like I guess it was probably Dolly um like whatever like one or 2.0, you know, whatever it was generating just looked like nightmare fuel where you have like >> Yes. Like a little spaghetti video. I mean, I know that's video versus image, but still. >> Exactly. It's And it's like I don't like why this isn't like it's crazy that it can do it, but at the same time, I'm like, this is scary. Like, I don't I don't want to use an image like this for anything. >> But even over like, you know, the past year or two years, um, >> just incredible in terms of like the the capabilities we're seeing. So, I I love using uh like Copilot and Visual Studio. So, I didn't realize how much I rely on it, which is kind of funny. And it's basically just for autocomplete. So, the fact that I can type things and I feel like it's mostly trained on or has been able to pick up on patterns on my own code bases. And because that's the case, as I'm typing, it's like mostly the same shape of other code I've written. >> Um, huge timesaver for me. um like it's a glorified autocomplete at that point, but I I recall in the past few months there was a day where my co-pilot like wasn't working and I almost felt like I didn't have any like I don't know it was like I'm working in Notepad now and I'm like trying to code and I'm like how do I do this again? >> Yeah, that's funny. I I also have used Copilot quite a bit and um I would say like when I first started using it it was like on a daily basis when I'd be like wow this autocomplete like it I'm genuinely surprised by the things that it's suggesting and like oh how can it infer based on like this variable name that I should have this comment here or something like that. Um and it's it's like I take it for granted now for sure. Um, but it's still a very impressive tool and like helps accelerate my workflow quite a bit. I am I'm curious like in uh VS Code you can also do like the chat where you can like highlight some code and ask it about like what it means or something like that. Do you ever use that as a tool? >> So the only reason I don't is uh is because it feels like it's slow which so literally what I do instead is I will just take and this isn't for like work. I'm not like taking Microsoft code into me. I don't code at work, so it's my own stuff. Um, I will copy code and just like put it into chat GPT. >> So, I'm doing the same thing, but I for some reason I find like the context menu and uh and the chat in in Visual Studio just seems to be slower >> and I I don't know what it is about it. So, it's I find it actually faster to take it, put it into a different tool, get the answer, and then and go back. >> Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah. I wonder at what point would it be uh minimal friction for you to not be bothered by that? >> It doesn't make sense to me cuz I'm like it's doing the same thing. So I don't know if it's because of like like in the actual IDE uh it's trying to like get some of the highlighting and stuff going on and like there's just it's not even the LLM at this point that's slow. >> Um but I I absolutely use like stuff like that to either refactor stuff. Um, I've been doing things like so for database stuff like I I know how to write SQL code like I can write SQL queries not I'm not an expert by any means but I can do it but I don't like I like having SQL queries visible to me in code. I don't like it being magic but I don't love writing them. So like yeah I don't think you're alone in that. Um I I feel the same way about like shell scripting, right? Where it's like I can do this, but it's going to be like a lot of Stack Overflow and a lot of Googling for trying to describe exactly what I'm doing. I feel like um tools like Copilot are really great for that where there's a lot of example material for it to draw from and taking, you know, plain English instructions and turning it into pretty usable code. >> That's exactly it. So, like I love that's such a good example because uh that's one of those things where like I never am writing like shell stuff or bash >> script. >> Could I do it? Absolutely. But it means that uh back to context switching, I'm going to have to basically put my bash scripting hat on >> on my bald head and then just like try to get in the zone and >> by the time like I've spent, you know, hours or whatever on it, like now I feel like pretty good at it, but like I'm not doing it that often. So, it's always this huge amount of activation energy. So yeah, definitely like LLMs are so for me there's such a good tool for that because it's not like I don't understand it, >> right? >> I just don't want to spend the time doing it. So >> yeah, I think that's the part or like the domain and types of problems that I find it to be most valuable right now where it's like I know this is possible but I don't know the nuances of you know XYZ language or framework or tool or whatever. Um I am curious like what your take is in five years from now, 10 years from now. Like do you think we're going to hit a point where you know my title right now is senior software engineer? Like is it going to be uh obsolete completely in terms of a developer and what we look at today or is it going to be you know a different role for that same title? Uh yeah what do you think? Yeah, I don't like my personal take is I don't think uh software development is not going away. Um I just can't I can't see that happening and I should say who like in way down the line in terms of like all types of jobs like perhaps it just looks way different but in like the fiveyear kind of horizon I don't see it going away but I do see it being different. Um, and okay, part of me is like I don't see it going away because the rate at which companies move to transition stuff like I I literally cannot comprehend at Microsoft them being like, "Okay, we're going to start rolling out AI agents that only code now." Like this team has been replaced by that. Like that >> it it's so far from being able to do that at the same level of effectiveness that I just can't see companies doing that. Um that's not to say that like it's impossible to do though or it won't happen. But in terms of actually implementing that, I see that being a huge barrier. Um I think that as software developers, our jobs are going to start shifting a lot more. And I think this is this is like a good thing. Um we talk about like levels of abstraction and programming languages and things like that. And I see us continuing to move in that direction, right? It's like instead of actually talking uh more and more about how code is structured, we're talking more and more about like how problem spaces are structured and the the goals we have with that. >> Um so yeah, I just see us moving in the direction more where AI is is sort of putting the code together uh and we have to understand the problem spaces and and kind of instruct it more efficiently. Yeah, I think I I generally agree with that take, especially in if we're talking about like the next five years. That being said, I if you would have asked me five years ago, what would be possible? Like what we have today is >> like light years ahead of what I would have even imagined. So I do say this with like a a bit of humility in terms of like my ability to predict the future. But I think certainly in the short term there's like this idea of we have this new tool available to us. Uh going forward there's going to be two kinds of developers. Those that can leverage this tool and those that don't. Right? And I think that if you're able to leverage it and have that right balance of I still understand the code that's being output and I know how to like utilize it to its maximum value and not just accept it blindly for whatever it's saying. >> Um those will be the people I get the most out of it. >> Yeah. I have this this other sort of angle on on this stuff that I'm curious your opinion on. And this is a weird take. So bear bear with me as I try to explain it. So um I think that and we're probably sort of comparable in terms of how like we approach learning how to program and stuff like that. don't exactly know that for sure. Um, probably early on when people were explaining like programming concepts to you, there was like, okay, well, here's how pointers work and like really what's happening is like we're going to talk about how we have like a stack and a heap and how uh how we have these variables that are allocated in memory and like um even maybe some lower level stuff like maybe you talked about registers and things like that for how a processor works and like I went to university for computer engineering so I was I literally made the choice to I wanted to be exposed to more hardware Um, in terms of how that affected my programming, probably not that much. But the point is that when I was going through this journey, there was a lot of people that were sort of the generation before me getting me to focus on I don't I don't want to use the word primitive like it's a bad thing, but like these really like fundamental primitive like >> programming concepts. >> Yeah. Really low-level things. And like I understand them. Um, but I guess I'm really curious because you you said it and I agree with what you said about not understanding what LLMs are outputting and stuff. I am literally genuinely curious if there's a wave of developers coming through that are like, I get what you're saying, but like I actually don't have to understand this >> and they just rely on what's going on and they're like, hey, that's not working. That's okay. I'm so good at prompting this stuff. Like, I'll just tell it it's not working. Here's the error. Fix it. make it better. Cool. Let me cover my eyes and keep doing it because I can move so fast at just getting more code output and glued together that >> that I just don't need to understand those details. And I'm very curious if that will be a reality. >> I mean, I'm sure it's already happening in some capacity, right? Like I'm sure that there's people that are just like self-taught programmers via prompt engineering. Um, I think the thing that'll like make or break that is really how the underlying tools themselves continue to evolve, right? Like if they keep getting better and better at generating code, you know, it it's hard for me to imagine, but maybe there is this point where you can just like prompt your way out of >> Yeah. ill ill-written code in the first place or sub-optimal code or maybe you're working on a domain where it's like not uh super mission critical in terms of efficiency and like maybe the LM is spitting out something that doesn't make a lot of sense and isn't the most graceful way to write something, but it still works at the end of the day and then who are you to question it? Um, >> and then when you need it to go faster, you just say, "Hey, LLM, here's my codebase." Like, >> right, >> make it better. So, like I don't that makes me uncomfortable because I'm like, "No, no." Like, I've been saying I think people have to question what the LLMs are outputting. >> If you're learning, um, I would say, you know, use AI tools, but take the opportunity to ask it, right? like it can literally explain these things to you. You can tell it like I'm a visual learner. I'm a person that learns by like lots of examples. Like explain this concept to me >> and like take advantage of that. But now I'm also wondering like >> am I like am I just >> sort of telling people how I think they should learn and >> sure >> maybe there's a way better way for them. I don't know. >> Are we just being too old school about it and like trying to dictate that >> even though even though it seems like new school, right? Like I don't know. It's very very weird. >> Yeah. I I don't know. It's It'll be certainly really interesting to see how that field evolves over the next couple years especially. >> I'm I'm personally I'm excited. I know some people are very nervous about what that means for their jobs and stuff, but I look at this stuff like I don't know like if I stay on you kind of said it the way that I think about it, but if I'm using it, I'm staying on top of it. Then I feel like I'm positioning myself to like kind of ride whatever that wave is. >> Maybe that means that what I'm doing or what my teams are doing is very different. But I feel like by ignoring it or not embracing it in some capacity and just pretending it's not there, like I think that's the the sort of dangerous spot to be in. >> Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Like even if you're only using it to like learn new concepts, like it's so great at ex like explaining different things or really adapting to how you prefer to learn things, right? But um I also think from the co-writing aspect there was like lots to be gleaned from it as well even if it takes >> you know more iterations of different tools in the future or just becoming like a better prompt engineer. Um yeah it's certainly a field that's ripe for both more innovation and just like lots of new things to come in the next couple years. Yeah, I'm I'm trying my best to make sure that as new developers are coming through that are kind of just like heavy into leveraging AI, like I want to be like, "Hey, like tell me show me what you're building and how you're building it because I'm I'm just so curious to see if there is this huge discrepancy and like >> look, I've made like 50 apps in the past two weeks and they're all crazy and I'm like, "How did you do it?" And they're like, "I don't even know. I just asked the AI and it made like I want I'm curious to see like if that starts happening." So >> yeah, that that would definitely kind of make me sad in some ways because I think like even Sam Alman himself has described like learning programming as being worth it just for the sake of >> it's a way of thinking, right? And I think that if you're >> only prompt engineering your way to code, then you're missing out on this like way of reasoning about problems that's very valuable. I totally agree and I think that's one of the reasons why probably many of us get uncomfortable with the thought that maybe that isn't how it looks in the future. Like I don't know but that's >> that that's a bit of a scary thought. >> Yeah. Well, I look forward to our episode in 10 years from now where we're reviewing this episode >> and we're doing completely different things because everything's been replaced by AI. So >> awesome. Okay. Well, Alex, uh thanks for going a little over time. I I appreciate you being here. It's always awesome to chat. I thought this was a fun format to do. So, thanks for proposing it. It was cool to touch on a bunch of different stuff. >> Yeah, thank you for indulging me and and trying out the grab egg for the first time. I also had a lot of fun chatting. >> Cool. Alex, where can people get a hold of you if they want to find you? >> Um, so you can find me on LinkedIn or on uh my books website keep calmcodon.com and there's a contact page on there. Always happy to hear from people. >> Cool. I'll make sure I get links and stuff in the description from you and that way I can't mess anything up. And uh yeah, Alex, thanks again for being here. This is a great great conversation. I really enjoyed it. >> Yeah, thanks for having me, Nick. Okay, take care.