How Much Math to Program? - Principal Software Engineering Manager AMA

stream to it I've been doing a bad job at that so pressing the go live button and it's finally working there we go um and last time I actually didn't realize but I wasn't getting linked in chat to the the chat aggregating tool so I'm going to be watching the comments as well and hopefully I don't mess that up so let's see today's conversation is going to be a about math and programming and I thought this was a super cool topic um maybe some people don't I guess but I think it's a cool topic because a lot of people hyperfocus on math when it comes to programming and I think one of the challenges is that especially for very new programmers and new software developers right they they see it as a barrier right they they say I end up not knowing math therefore like I I can't ever program like it it becomes like a self sabotage type of thing and I wanted to be able to talk about this more broadly just checking the chat hey James good morning to you it's uh it's actually quite the opposite here in in Seattle area it's 9:30 in the evening but it's really cool there's people from all over the world that join this and uh it's h it's awesome to have people uh that can do that so I wna so I want to kind of you know frame this conversation right the the idea that I wrote about in my newsletter this past weekend was that like how much math do you need for programming and I had an interesting way to do this I decided I was going to take to Twitter uh because Twitter is a source of knowledge right there's lots of people on Twitter with lots of opinions and whether or not the opinions are you know right or wrong it there are opinions to be shared so I thought it was going to be really cool to hear from from different people about what they thought about this so um if you're not following me on Twitter it's just Dev leer on Twitter or X whatever you would like to refer to it as and the question that I posed was people seem hesitant to learn programming because of math this is kind of what I said right when I started the stream right so how much math do you regularly do in your coding and it was framed this way because I wanted to make sure I could have a bunch of different opinions and have people kind of discuss this because I do think that uh there are different ways that you can look at this and try to answer this but the point the point of this question is that I wanted to kind of collect data points do a little bit of social media research if you will from different people in the industry or maybe they're trying to get into the industry right people that programmer want to program in their thoughts about math so it there's a bit bit of bias when I when I do this right because I'm kind of seeing if I can prove a point but I don't control the responses right so that's that's the thing uh if if everyone jumped onto the Twitter thread and said you know I do calculus every day at work then here I'd be kind of saying oops I guess maybe my hypothesis was wrong so the the way that I framed My article was in response to what this tweet was and this uh know I'm not very big on Twitter or anything like that but this tweet was the most I guess you could call like successful tweet that I've ever had in terms of you know people engaging with it and um having having really interesting conversations on it so um I thought that it would be cool to kind of break it into three different categories based on the responses so uh it's not like it was you know completely one-sided where everyone just said no math or uh only math 's kind of three different ways and the categories of things are that people said they do math every day there's people that say they never do math and then there's this third category where people kind of I I don't want to say they're trolling but I think they're kind of trying to pick apart the statement and instead of just answering like yes I do math like in programming or no I don't they try to frame it like like programming is math right there is no separation or can be represented mathematically and I want to talk about all three of these things just piing chat hey Nick I'm at net Devon I've been writing net since 2021 at my job I've been writing it for three years still not confident in my skill set and understanding it learning through a book but it seems I can't stretch examples from the book to solidify learning um I would you know my recommendation for anyone learning programming is of course you're going to want to get exposed to um you know different concepts in the language like the recommendation I have is hey go build stuff but if you've never seen the code before and you're like well how do I even code something if I I don't even know what the language is or what language to pick in your case at least you've kind of started looking at net I'm assuming C here um and you know if you're checking out books and stuff that's great but I think once you see some of the language features I would highly recommend setting a goal for yourself and try to go build some things and they can be extremely simple I think people get this very confused that when it's like hey like you know the recommendation is go build some software to get better at it people go well I don't have any business ideas like I I can't go build the next you know Netflix and it's like well that's not what I'm saying to do and I think we have to be a little bit more guided with this kind of advice you could go build a console application that is a calculator right like you have to start extremely simple so that you can start practicing and from there you can keep expanding on the examples so I won't go off the rails for this conversation yet I'll I'll have more time at the end of this for more uh questions and stuff obviously I don't need to to not ask them but uh if you are just want to get a head start if you check out my my website so Dev leer.com offline if you want to send me a message on a different platform and I can try to to guide you there okay so for for Math and programming I wanted to kind of start with the I do math every day because I thought this was super interesting and if you haven't guessed already I find it interesting because I take one side of this uh you know uh a significant amount like I don't do math every day in programming so some people that were commenting on the thread were saying like I do math every day um you know every day is math for me I've been doing math for years in programming and I saw a handful of these coming in and there wasn't a lot of like explanation so I'm kind of going well what are you building like I build I've been building software for over 21 years and I'm like I don't do a lot of math so I started asking I started saying well hey like that's really interesting can you explain more about the types of things you're building and there's a like it seems kind of obvious in hindsight but when people started explaining there's a lot of themes that were coming up so there were people that were saying like well I I write software for financial institutions right I do a lot of work with money and finances in the software that I'm building okay like that makes sense that you're going to be doing a lot of math if there's money involved that okay I get it there were some people that were saying like they're working on analytics platforms or data analytics for their the the company they're working at and again like yeah that totally makes sense like if you're if that's if that's what you're doing with software I can imagine that you have to know a whole bunch of math because you're literally doing that for work and there's two examples right but you might start to see the theme already other people were saying hey like I'm working on games so um graphics and things like that there were people that they were doing graphics and didn't even mention games don't know if they meant games or they're doing graphics for something else but the point is that the people that were saying like I do math every day were people that were working in domains that required a lot of math right um it's kind of obvious when you think about it so I thought that this was really important because when you ask a question like this like how much math do you do in your coding of course there's going to be people that work in a field or a domain that requires math and in one of the last live streams I did I kind of started off the conversation by talking about bias if these people work in areas that require a lot of math given the domain they're in they like you know if if a new programmer was like Hey I want to learn programming like do I need to know math these people might have a bias a strong bias that says like yeah like you know I do programming every day I need to know a lot of math I'm not saying that every one of them is not going to recognize you know this difference here but there's an opportunity for bias and even if a person that was new to programming was asking this more generally they might not almost be asking the right question it's so it's the question should not have been do you use math in your day-to-day work because the reality is these people absolutely do the question is really more and this is kind of the Hidden part to it the question was really more about do you need strong math skills to become a programmer right that's my hidden question that I did not um you know put in front of people's faces okay so I started talking about this as a bit of a theme and the theme for for this part was really for folks that are doing math every day in their programming it's it's seemed to be that it it's not because the programming itself like how to code required strong math skills it's that the domain that they were in was literally something that was based within math and I think that's actually important to kind of call out right so not only not only because I think it helps support some of my perspective a little bit but it also can can do the opposite and when people ask me like hey I want to learn how to program but I don't know math if someone wanted to be a you know a a game engine programmer and they left out that detail you know and I'm I'm sitting here going oh you don't really need strong math skills to become a programmer like yeah you do if you want to be a game engine developer so I think that there's extra context that really helps steer this question so the way that I look at you know this set of answers was really math it was not a fundamental requirement like strong math skills was not a fundamental requirement to be a programmer but there are absolutely different domains or Industries different fields where math is absolutely going to be exercised the type of math you're doing will depend heavily on the field so I think that's important especially for new people understand I kind of wanted to address that okay now I want to talk about the other one that was kind of interesting and it was the group of people that was again I I don't know if it was like trolling on Twitter or if it was more about um like philosophically they disagree with the question I think there was some of that um but the group of people that was essentially saying things like I think that and there's a handful of different ways that this came up but things like um programming is math so to say that you don't need math to program doesn't make sense programming is math then you need math to program okay I can see the the logic there there were people that were kind of indicating like you know basically everything can be represented by math and I mean yeah I guess given whatever complex system we have in in existence you could given enough time you could probably find mathematics to model it sure you could make a you know like a philosophical argument like that but it's weird like it's it's not getting it's not getting to my my hidden question which was do you need strong math skills to be able to get into programming right so of course if I don't ask that explicitly people are going to come up with creative answers for this type of question which I think is fair um and uh I think what was interesting about this was that like there's a there's a really good point being made here and even if I like don't want to admit it because it's not siding with my narrative I think it's really important to talk about it and these people are right by saying like programming Concepts can be modeled by mathematics right and I see like on Twitter like on the chat here I consider programming as more logic than math and I'm going I'm going Tove into this a little bit right and I I actually had a a really good exchange with someone on on LinkedIn actually someone that I I really admire um his name's Eric um I'll kind of dive into this I guess because it's a good segue I had posted about this live stream and I said I want to talk about you know math and programming and his perspective was was literally the exact opposite of mine and he said I think a lot of people and I sorry if I I don't going to paraphrase this it's not a direct quote so I hope I don't misrepresent the intention here but um Eric was saying along the lines that he thinks that math is you know is a requirement for programming and basically said like all programming is basically discreet math and if you go like Google search like what topics are in discreet math and I did this because I was thinking back to University I was like man I I used to like do quite well in school and when I entered University and I had disc Street math classes that's the first time in my entire life where I was like I'm failing I'm failing courses this was discreet math and if you look up the topics in discreet math it's basically like all sorts of programming Concepts and in part of Eric's you know argument he went on to say a couple of things like um abstract like math is abstract thinking math is logic um and like I I fully agree right and then went on to say like discreet math is used like basically every single day in programming which I mean it's true so and I apologize on Twitter I I can't pronounce your name so I I will not try because I think I might embarrass myself and I don't mean to to insult you by trying but I consider programming is more logic than math and I I agree with this and my response to Eric was was essentially this like I 100% agree that math um you know is something that requires abstract thinking and that it builds on logic and how you think logically through things like algorithmic thinking like absolutely but I said that these are skills that if you practice mathematics these skills will improve and similarly if you practice programming these skills will improve these are separate skills separate from you know explicitly being mathematics that are very beneficial for programming so my my sort of counter argument to him was like I don't think you need to get good at math in order to exercise those skills and if you can find a different way to EXC those skills you can leverage those skills for being a better programmer and when I think about some of the other response I had to him is kind of like what I just hinted at with like how I did very poorly in mathematics in University it took me five like my program was five years but it took me in my fifth year like or one of the last set of math courses I had it took me my entire University career to go from having 50s in math to finally getting back up to like 80s and like that was very difficult for me because I had like I've said this on stream before but in like high school I never had to tried anything I just had good marks and I thought I could post through University that was absolutely not the case for M and the whole time I'm programming I'm doing excellent in programming it's always I'm not trying to be cocky it's just something that I've always been kind of aligned with and I've done well with it but the difference was I think from Eric's perspective he's saying these topics things like trees and other different types of algorithms like these are mathematical topics they can be represented in math and I think that is 100% correct but I can tell you for a fact that I didn't go look at the mathematical fruits of the different algorithms for things like freeze um and anything else is in discreet math and I went oh now it makes sense for programming 100% the opposite you could tell me any of the mathematical proof stuff make me practice that and it never for a second made any sense in programming but as soon as you put me in front of a computer and said like we're going to use this data structure and here's some of the characteristics of it all of a sudden like it starts to make way more sense so for me I'm just trying to illustrate that thinking about it from a different direction a different perspective made a huge difference in terms of how I could understand it and apply it to programming but these Concepts truly are like they can be mathematically modeled there's proofs and everything for them right so this goes back to I I kind of asked the wrong question and I kind of said back to Eric in my response and I'm kind of not trying to pick on Eric here I thought it was a really good comment but my my response back to him was kind of like I you know my Uber Point here is do you need to be good at prog or my goodness do you need to be good at math to become a programmer and I still stand by my perspective which is no if you are good at math right if you're good at math it like means that you have good abstract thinking you have good algorithmic thinking right the way that you think logically through things is probably very good and as a result that translates well into programming so can we can we see the difference there like the point is that my my statement my claim is not hey there is no math in programming I'm quite literally acknowledging many if not all programming Concepts can be modeled through mathematics my other claim though is that you do not need to understand the details of the mathematics in order to be able to program now one other thing that came up and this one is kind of weird but like I do agree with it someone said well if you're doing Boolean logic that's also mathematics so like try and tell me you're not doing Boolean logic okay like you got me there but I guess the I go back to the theoretical aspects of Boolean logic and thinking through the proofs and stuff like that's not how my brain works when I go to program so it's not a mathematical mindset that allows me to go leverage those tools it's truly like an algorithmic mindset there's not it's not math and this is again this is my my opinion my perspective on it I'm just kind of sharing this with people which is going to bring me I guess to this third point and I do want to make sure I have more time for questions too so this one is probably a little bit shorter in terms of you know the content that I built up to go over um but absolutely more time and stuff for questions if people want so the third group of people is the group of people that's kind of in the same camp as me which is I don't do math when I program and I I didn't count the number of um responses I don't know if I can do that easily on Twitter um I have it pulled up here but I'm not logged in uh in this browser but the basically like I wish I should have got like a rough number but there was was an overwhelming majority of people saying things like you know never 0% of the time I use math um just like any any way that you can find say I don't know how to do math and if I had to I wouldn't be a good programmer there were so many people taking this perspective and to me this is exciting not because I want to sit here and say hey look my perspectives right because that's not the point and I I don't think that there's one right perspective on this but I do think that there's a good takeaway from this and that's that I was able to go onto social media whether or not you think Twitter's a good spot for it or not sorry for people watching this on Twitter but some people some people don't like Twitter right there's people developing software there's software Engineers on Twitter that responded to this there were many there were tons of people that responded to this I was completely shocked how many people were like I have a I have a strong opinion about this and an overwhelming majority of them said that math was not important it didn't come up in their day-to-day program and the reason that this is exciting to me is that I finally have some anecdotes from people in Industry to be able to go tell other people like I mentioned at the beginning of the stream people that say I wish I could get into programming but I'm not good at math right my goal is not to to go on Twitter and or any social media platform and just argue with people like that gets no one anywhere I don't I don't care if you want to look at programming like math that's totally cool like I power to you if that is how you perceive and like can you know solve problems and stuff if it's all all looks like math to you like that's super cool but it's not how my brain works I don't think that's how a lot of our brains work so being able to have a lot of evidence and anecdotes from people to be able to bring to more Junior Engineers are people that want to get into the industry and I can finally say like it's not just my opinion right there are tons of people that also have this mindset and if they're able to get by being successful in their careers saying I never do math you should be okay and I should clarify what I say never do math I mean some people said never but other people were saying like fifth grade math and when I say never do math I mean like I count right I do lots of counting in my programming sometimes I have to add some numbers together and subtract them uh the most complex thing is like division like I don't I don't I don't do complicated math it's very rare and when I am doing more complicated math it's very situational because the domain that I'm working in requires it that's really it like if I need to go write some code that's calculating statistics for Stuff you can bet I'm going online and checking for a formula and then like I don't know it but again my my point here is that for folks that are trying to get into programming uh and I'm kind of encouraging people that are watching this right if if you have if number one if you are someone that wants to get into programming and you've been nervous like hey my math skills aren't that good it's okay it's totally okay you need to be able to like to problem solve think through things logically and those are skills you can build up without math for sure but you need those skills you will have to work on those skills and for the other folks that are that are watching this you know if you are in industry and whether or not you have an opinion about how much math you do at work or you know in your projects and stuff I want you to to please keep an open mind for for more Junior developers or people that are aspiring to be software Engineers if you put the barrier up that says You must be good at math like what what are you actually encouraging them to go do what like if it's that General right like should they go learn calculus should they go study discreet math like like what what are the what are the things they have to be good at you can't just say good at math right so I think putting that bar up makes it like I don't want it's a little bit like gatekeeping I guess even if it's not intentional I think people have enough challenges to overcome anyway to get into software engineering and the last thing they need is like more self-doubt about their skills they can absolutely work on problem solving skills algorithmic thinking all those things I'm not saying they're going to love it that's a different story people very well might find out they don't like software engineering that's okay but you don't need Advanced calculus I've never I couldn't tell you how to do a derivative or an integration or integral anymore know how to do LL and F your transforms I could not tell you how to do that I can't multiply matrices none of that nothing I learned in universities or things that I apply now like nothing not saying it wasn't useful because I think it helped me with my algorithmic thinking sure but I don't know any of that math anymore and I don't use anything like that in my programming so I think that was my my Spiel that's what I wanted to go over today so I do want to open up for more questions um I know there was a question towards the beginning of this about projects for for developers if you're if you're still on I can't see who's actually um still like you know in the chat and stuff I can see if you're talking uh but if you're still on and you want to talk through projects we can do that now I'm happy to take other questions um I should probably do a little bit of a plug for courses and sorry I'm not trying to make an advertisement for this a little bit I guess but there is a big sale and it's not it's not even my sale I don't control these but it ends on April 30th it's for Dome Train's birthday so I'm just going to try to switch my screen here um so I have courses on dome train but this isn't my website right this is just where I have my courses um Nick capsis who runs Dome train has put on for Dome Train's birthday there's these discount codes birthday 40 and birthday 20 so yes I'm plugging this but I mean if you don't want my courses there's lots of awesome courses here they're all discounted it does end on April 30th it's a legit coincidence that I'm trying to do a live stream I do them on Mondays April 30th happens to be tomorrow so I mean it's going to end but there's lots of awesome courses here um this is the Black Friday pricing so this kind of thing won't pop up until the end of the year but lots of awesome chuses there okay that's my my Spiel for for plugin uh courses and ads and stuff like that I don't I I don't like doing it but I think it's uh I truly think that there's some helpful stuff there okay um I'm going to be watching the chat for questions I'm going to circle back to the project one in case there's some more um interest around that but uh when it comes to building projects um and I guess maybe I should back up the question was really about like you know how to position oneself better for learning versus just reading stuff because if you're reading books how do you start applying it like sometimes it's not really sticking if I back up for this question this is like kind of refer to like tutorial hell and the reason that it's called this is because I think a lot of the time we associate learning with just like collecting information if I can call it that way right and it's not that there's something wrong with reading books I'm certainly not saying that but it's the same argument like replace book with blog articles right I write lots of blog articles and you could replace blog articles in that situation with YouTube videos I make lots of YouTube videos as well I don't think that the best way to actually learn something is to binge reading books reading articles and watching YouTube videos I make two of those things very regularly and I'm telling you that's not the best way to learn I think that those are supplementary things so the way that I would recommend approaching this kind of thing for improving your learning if you're kind of starting off trying to kind of level up in your learning and you're feeling stuck is I think you need to flip things around and it sounds kind of weird hear me out for a second when you're doing things like tutorials right or you're reading books watching YouTube videos you get this you get this kind of feeling this feedback loop like I am I'm doing the thing that I need to do to be able to learn that's great like it I think it's great that you're taking those steps to be to learn but what's happening is that those things are not being applied unfortunately right so there's two parts to it one is going to be collecting the information and the other part is going to be applying the things that you're learning because if you're not applying them those Concepts will not stick I know this is going to sound like a huge tangent but it's the same reason I was saying uh like a little bit before I talked about being able to do like and transforms in University for math I can't do those things anymore I could only do them briefly because I was practicing them I don't have that skill set anymore not a chance and with programming it's similar you cannot just expect to read something or watch something and go oh now I can do it right I'll give you I'll give you a different example that seems like it's ridiculous but it's the same concept okay here we go so imagine I want to become a better basketball player this is kind of ironic because I'm very short so bear with me but if I wanted to become a better basketball player what I cannot do is just go watch videos about you know how to dribble how to pass how to you know shoot and get the points like you can't can't just watch videos on it you can't just read books on it you have to go practice it right those things could be helpful right like you could go watch video tutorials on those things or read articles or books on how to be better at those skills those can be helpful but you do not become better at it unless you practice it but back to what I said about flipping things around I think it's important to be able to supplement your learning with things like books articles videos all that kind of stuff like like even choruses right I don't think choruses are a great fit for everyone but there's some accountability there because when you pay for it you're like I want to get something out of this but even if you just did a course right I don't think that that's a solution I open up all of my courses by saying I highly recommend that you follow along and code as you're like leveraging my course I do not just want you to watch it I want you to be programming I want you to go pause the video and go program it yourself so when I say flip things around what I mean by that is Leverage The the problems that you're encountering with building things to say oh I don't know how to do this I should go watch a tutorial on it I should go read an article on this go read a book on this wire the information and go apply it right the narrative is complet completely switched instead of saying I'm going to consum information and try to find a place to apply it you change it all around and saying I'm going to try to build this thing and when I get stuck and I don't know what to do I will go leverage some different resources to go see how to solve this I'm just going to do a quick check on LinkedIn because I don't know if the comments are coming maybe no one's maybe no one's watching on LinkedIn that's okay they just don't want to I missed comments last time I going to feel terrible if I do again okay maybe no one's there that's okay so yeah I think Flip Flip things around try to build some stuff and see where you get stuck and then you go okay well Nick that's cool that Mak sense but like what the heck am I supposed to build right I just started programming how am I supposed to go build anything and I I kind of exaggerated earlier in the in the Stream when I said this but this comes up a lot where people will say like I don't have any ideas like I think they're trying to think about it like a business right like I mean we all want to be programmers and software developers so we can go build things and eventually make money doing it but when I say go build stuff what I don't mean is I hope you have a good business idea and you need to go become an entrepreneur to do it not what I mean at all um I've even told people you don't have to finish the thing you're building bu like the point of you building things is to practice right so you start building something you're making progress on it and there's a goal there and that's to learn as soon as you don't feel that you're learning with the project that you're working on you could either add some scope to it right so add some new features change sort of some of the goals that you're trying to build for and that introduces new challenges right so I gave you an example of a calculator that's it should be a simple console application you could go build and you go cool okay like I can take the user input I can add the numbers like I got it that's pretty simple awesome okay go make it a winform application right it's still a calculator go put a user interface on it okay and you go try like now you have to how do I go make a wind form application I'm saying wind form maybe I should have said like WPF or Maui like Wind forms is maybe dating myself a little bit but um you know you go now you have to go learn about WPF and Maui and you're going to go build some cool desktop application that's awesome and now you have that and you go see look Nick I I finished it though it's still a boring calculator and I go cool make it on mobile now right you if you did it in Maui you could try you know putting it on an Android phone or an iPhone whatever you have that's cool right now you have to go watch some videos and uh read some articles on how to do that great okay cool but the whole time you're practicing like your your programming right like you're building more stuff in C and now at this point you say okay Nick I built a console application that was a calculator that was super easy I got that no problem WPF stuff sure and like I made it into Maui now it's on my phone cool and I go great now make an asp.net core application and I want you to make some end points that can do adding subtracting multiplying and dividing it's still a calculator but now you have to go learn this Tex stack asp.net core right so the point is not that you're going to have a sweet calculator at the end it's a calculator there's a million calculators right there's keyboard shortcuts that open calculators on on your computer the point is not that you have the best calculator in the world at the end of it the point is that you spend time building things right you might not have finished the mobile calculator and you said this wasn't interesting and I don't like it great you learned something you learned that you don't like doing that that's okay right you're spending the time building stuff that's the only way that you're going to get better at it so go do those things I had a if you're watching this on LinkedIn if you follow me on LinkedIn then you guaranteed know who John Cricket is and one of the YouTube interviews that I did with John Cricket he had really good advice for this if you don't know who John Cricket is he has a newsletter called coding challenges and the whole point about it is giving people voting challenges as you might have guessed to be able to go practice programming and he was talking to me about like you know I was ask him questions about people getting started and like people often say like what's the best language what should I go learn and his advice was really cool it was kind of like try something right and see if you like it and if you like don't just go try something completely different and he said the same thing for languages right go build something in Python see how that feels and like whether you like it then try building something in seart maybe try something in Rust like this is the if you don't know what you want like go try it go feel it out and explore it and the same thing for Tech stacks and when I say text Stacks I don't mean like I don't want to hyper focus on like oh you have to go use a text stack I mean like the domain I guess or like the uh the form factor like you want to build websites mobile applications servers like all that kind of stuff you might find like for me I I actually spent many like over over a decade building like desktop applications but like I'm not I'm not inclined to go build pretty user interfaces all at all I just had a lot of experience working in Wind forms in WPF so now that I do a lot more web stuff where do I spend my time well it's certainly not in the front end that was never something that I enjoyed doing I just happened to be have a skill set for Wind forms I could put together user interfaces and someone would say like hey it's functional it looks terrible can we move stuff around and I would say no problem you tell me where you want the stuff and how you want it to look I'll go do it but I don't have an eye for that and like it's doesn't really click for me I don't enjoy it but I love doing the backend side of stuff but that took a long time to figure out right no one like not a lot of people know this stuff right away so go try some stuff out build projects it's okay if you don't finish them no problem right like you spend that time learning and hey Maria I do see LinkedIn chat this time I don't know what happened last time so I'm glad that I can see your messages I made sure to have LinkedIn pulled up so I could watch it especially to see if comments are rolling in but it is coming in in the chat now which is great so I'm happy to see that I think this tool is telling me that one of the oh my Twitter broadcast isn't running man it's always something um but yeah I don't think there was any other questions and stuff that came in so maybe I can wrap this one up a little sooner I'll leave a couple seconds if anyone wants to jump in with questions though but um otherwise this might be done and that's okay I'm waiting for anything else to roll in uh um if you're curious about content that's going out this week blog articles will be about dependency injection trying to build up towards um a bunch of plug-in related stuff I've been kind of teasing at some plugin stuff and finally going to do that um the videos this week will be related to that as well and so it'll probably be a week or two after this where I start putting out more plug-in content that can be applicable for laser and asp.net core and then uh newsletter topic for this week I want to talk about not quite job security it's almost the opposite it's a bit of a paradox I want to talk about being Irreplaceable at work and sort of the Paradox about being Irreplaceable because I think it's a really interesting topic so that's going to be what the newsletter is this week so um thank you folks for watching I would say if you uh want to hear more about the newsletter please check it out um it's at weekly. deev leader.com thank you so much I do appreciate all the support I will do this again next Monday and um yeah it likely will be about the newsletter topic so if you don't read the newsletter you should but um I'll be talking about that topic on Monday's stream so thanks again and I will see you all hopefully next week bring a friend