Becoming The Interview Champion - Interview With Dynamic Singh

So when you have to move a mountain, you have to start by carrying stones, right? And that's very uh a simple way to put on like if you have a big target to achieve, you would have to start small, look at what's missing, what can I do here. >> Hi, I'm Nick Coantino and I'm a principal software engineering manager at Microsoft. In this video, I was joined by Bupender Singh, popularly known as Dynamics Singh, who's an engineering leader from Berlin. In our conversation, we sat down to talk about his challenges going through the interview process and what he had to turn around for himself in order to make progress. Now, as you probably noticed in the bottom corner of your screen, there is an offer to get early access to the book that we're going to be talking about as we go through this conversation. If you're looking to drive improvements in your interview process, then stay tuned for this conversation for a little bit of a mindset shift. And you can check out Interview Champion to help level up your interview process. Let me know in the comments if you find this kind of content interesting, and I'll see you next time. Hey everyone, I'm Bupender. I'm a tech professional living in Berlin and I have a decade of experience in tech. I have worked at early stage startups, scaleups, tech unicorns and one of the Fortune 100 companies. And fun fact about me is uh I started coding very early when I was 12 and I also competed in roller skating during my school days and won some medals too. And yeah, in free my in my free time I like to play squash uh you know hang out with friends, try out new cuisines. I'm a big foodie. So, yeah, that's a bit about me. >> That's awesome. So, you're you are a human outside of software engineering, right? You have other things that you do. You're not just coding non-stop. That's great to hear. I think some people have that confused that once you get into software engineering, like that's your personality for the rest of eternity. So, very cool. >> Yeah. I mean, uh that's that's actually very very true. people think like that like that software engineers are geeks. Uh but I kind of differ to see uh differently that I'm more creative uh than like uh being especially like geek. I like to you know like uh I like to enjoy every sense of life, everything in life. Uh you know experience everything, travel, learn a lot from people, learn about different cultures, learn about different languages, right? uh and uh that that's what gives a complete living experience as a human being that's how I feel um and you know like playing sports I really enjoy that uh because I think the life if you're born into life you're not born into work right so work is a part of life and that that should be very important uh that it's very important that you remember that you remember that >> right no I think I think that's uh super important in fact like I one of the one the tattoos. I can't I can never show it on camera, but my tattoo on my forearm is actually about that to remind myself like there there's more to life than just working, right? Just to get the paycheck and stuff. So, I that resonates with me. I had a question though and you said that you started programming at 12, which I think for some people um some people they see that as like that's the traditional way, right? Like they'll look at people in software engineering and they go man like that person. It's like basically as soon as they could walk they were programming like I don't stand a chance because you know I'm I might be 20 years old now thinking that I want to get into software engineering. Can you maybe comment about like how you started early that's awesome but like what what did that look like? How did you transition from that into being like this is something I know I want to do? Yeah, I mean I think it's more I definitely feel I'm blessed in that sense. uh because it didn't happen like one day I woke up and I decided I will be a software engineer or I was very curious when I saw u like a computer in my uh school lab back in the days and then then my mom gifted me a computer and then I stumbled upon I started you know start playing around it and figure out like how the paint works you know MS paint was a big thing back in the days right u and and then I started uh there was you if you remember It was Windows uh 2000, Windows XP. If you go on the C drive, you would see like hidden files, don't delete anything, that kind of a thing. And I >> so I I was like, let's delete it, man. Let's see what happens. So, I was always in the sense to see what's on the other side of the road. Let's try it out. Let's figure it out. And I deleted that and I realized it stopped working. So and and to my luck, you know, like when something stops working, you have your computer under warranty. So we called the engineer, he came, he installed the Windows again and I saw what was going on. So I checked what he is doing. Then I asked like why are you clicking on next next all the time? what's what's the deal like because I have no idea >> and back in the days uh you know like they need they need to configure BIOS and there were some settings related to BIOS we which are required to reset the computer or something like that. So I asked I was very curious like what he was doing. There was a black screen BIOS. I was like what is BIOS like right and I started digging deeper into it. He went home and immediately the same evening I deleted all the Windows file again because I had the soft I had the CD to install the Windows right uh which you get when you buy a computer. So I did again the same step steps again and I was able to complete it. Then few days passed you know I was I was uh gaming I was I was playing I think the road rash was one of the game back then which was very uh NFS Need for Speed was one of the games which I was very interested in back in the days I mean growing up I played Age of Empires and all those kind of things. >> Sure. >> Yeah. And FIFA FIFA is one of my favorite games. Uh and yeah so I I started realizing and then one day what happened was uh my computer uh started sounding quite a lot and there was a fan out which was going like as if like some processing was going crazy but I I was not able to figure out like two years down the line uh when I had computer and then it came to me like let's open this black box >> right >> you know like and then back in the day my uh my mom had a Nokia phone with the camera N series something uh of that uh side I open the open the CPU and I started recording like what is in it and I started removing everything it was very dusty very bad maybe that's the reason it was sounding the SMPS had some problems >> yeah and uh I opened it up clean it up put it back and uh yeah and that's how really my curiosity led it to led me to learn about computers And then I went into uh looking into there was a Sonic player back in the days vinam. Sonic if you remember then then >> yeah vamp for sure I used win amp a lot. Yeah. >> And and then I started looking into their files, how to change the theme, went into the I didn't know about anything about coding. So I used to just open the file in the text file and then try to understand what's going on. And then slowly and steadily learned HTML, CSS, JavaScript. So web was my one thing or first thing. So I built my first website when I was in eighth grade. Uh so that was basically copying snippets from here and there of JavaScript snippets trying to understand what's going on and seeing it's working >> without even really a great knowledge about JavaScript and then slowly and steadily I made my path the curiosity led me to explore new things and then here I am today and then I did computer science engineering u which which was really helpful in terms of data structures and stuff uh but yeah that's uh that's a bit about my journey >> but Before we move on, this is just a reminder that I do have courses available on dot train if you want to level up in your C programming. If you head over to dome train, you can see that I have a course bundle that has my getting started and deep dive courses on C. Between the two of these, that's 11 hours of programming in the C language, taking you from absolutely no programming experience to being able to build basic applications. You'll learn everything about variables, loops, a bit of async programming, and object-oriented programming as well. Make sure to check it out. That's cool though. I think um something you said that's very interesting and I've seen I've seen people kind of go this route uh like a lot of people that are like more junior or aspiring to be you know I want to get into software engineering that kind of thing it's always like what books do I read what language what tech stack and it's like they want to jump into the the theory part and something you said that was very interesting is I was just copying code from different spots trying to put it together and I have seen uh I have a good friend of mine who if you were to ask him can you program he would say absolutely not but I've been you know over the past almost two years now um I have watched him put together things that are very much like you need to be able to program but he won't admit it because what he's doing is taking things from different places and mashing them together and I'm like man like that's that is programming like you're taking code from other spots and making these things combined. So, I've seen people have great success using that as like their kickoff point. Like, they get something that starts to work, especially if there's a a a visual component like having a website. And then from there, as they want to keep building stuff, they do need to refine their skills. They're like, "Okay, I have something that works, but it's slow. Okay, what do I do? Like, how do I start optimizing things? Oh, why like why are we using uh you know this data structure versus this? Like they kind of see these patterns over time and then they start to refine. So I just thought it was interesting that you kind of it seems like you had a similar experience where you know you're just taking pieces and getting them to work and that's the the kickoff point. So very cool. >> Yeah. I mean uh I I remember um I I'm not sure like back in the days when when I first uh like got a computer class or whatever uh we were learning uh a language that was based on the turtles and stuff I turtle side and stuff like that you need to move the turtle at one place if you remember was it cobalt I'm not really sure uh but I think it it was >> I have not used cobalt so >> yeah but but that was the first thing which made me curious and to learn about how things work and when I looked at my first web page and I was like uh if you remember like uh when Craig Craigslist uh launched and Google launched right I mean they were initially launched and talking about those days and I was very curious like how is this I search for something and I see something like how is this happening right and then then I just started going down to the rabbit hole and I'm a very curious person in general So if I hear a word which I have no idea about I just dig deeper and then I real then I try to learn about it and if I don't don't know about it then I used to ask my teachers uh in the school they were very helpful as well. So yeah that's that's uh you know like I think whatever success a person has a lot of has to do with the people you come across the environment uh you are in and you and the things you come across a lot of people also ignore stuff and they never know what's going on they hear ah okay whatever uh but I think curiosity is a very uh big thing I think and >> yeah it's uh it's one of those things that if uh if you're not into software engineering yet and you're trying to to see if it's a good fit for you or how do you start like there are so like a lot of people will say oh well it's math right like you got to know math because you know programmer people they're smart and math people are smart like it's got to be math and it's like math is like a foundation for logical thinking which is great but you don't need strong math and in fact the you're listing things like curiosity right like I would say curiosity problem solving There's so many of these other skills that become such a good foundational fit for for getting into software engineering and those can become your superpower, right? So for for yourself if you're curious and like that is just an innate thing that you're always wanting to be curious and dive into things that's so beneficial for debugging for like root causing things when things are going wrong because you don't just go oh like I think this might fix it on the surface. It's like why is it broken? Like how did this happen? How do we make sure it doesn't happen again? Like there's the curiosity drives you so much further than just things on the surface. And like I said, that can become a superpower for for software engineering. So there's there's so many different skill sets and things like that that you can lean into and it doesn't have to be math like I think there's many other options. >> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. I mean if you are good at like like pe like children who play Lego right uh they have some kind of idea about how to join things how to break things how how to build up different structures and that's a very important uh thing to have growing up like if you have played with some certain kind of similar things which require using your brain in that way which is like problem solving uh I think over the years what I've realized is problem solving is one of the biggest thing if uh in the world if someone has it they can figure out whatever they want because that's very very very useful skill and it leads you to stumble upon uh lot of opportunities. It leads you to figure out a lot of stuff on your own. It leads you to you know like learn a lot uh while you're observe just observing and looking at people. So yeah it's it's pretty good. >> Yeah. >> No that's a that's a that's a great call though. definitely problem solving. Uh would 100% agree with that. So I I want to bring up you got a book and I wanted to mention that you have this book. I want you to talk about it a little bit because I think a lot of the stuff that you and I were chatting about before that is is guaranteed to come up. I think it will be good to have uh this book that you've put together as a reference point because I think there's a lot of a lot of good things that you've captured in that. And uh like I said, I think as we chat through this, it will be good to mention like uh if that kind of is something covered in the book or or how your book might um you know introduce those topics to people. So what's tell us about your book? What made you write it and uh maybe we can kind of go from there. >> Definitely. So u in 2020 like when the covid happened, right? So a lot of organizations were impacted uh and a lot of opport opportunities were also out there because a lot of organizations were also doing good right so some opportunities came my way and uh what happened was I I failed uh interviews for three organizations although I was already working at a senior position uh and frankly speaking it doesn't matter what position you work on if you're not ready for something you will fail that's pretty much it right uh so I I failed because of very minor ute steps like uh in one of the interviews I was speaking fast uh they were not able to understand uh really what I was saying um may maybe because everyone it's it's not like everyone speaks English all across the world and it's not their native language as well right it >> good point >> yeah so it's it's like it's not only about speaking English it's also about grasping English right so if you are not a native speaker it's not that easy to understand and everyone has their own accent to pronounce things Right. Uh so I >> yeah so I I got a rejection in like fifth round which was like nothing to do with coding at all. Uh and they said like hey the interviewer said you speak a bit fast and that could be uh you know like trouble people could have trouble understanding you. I'm like what this is this is the reason. So I I had these small small things which I have no idea about and interview takes like two months for a big company right? So I was interviewing for a very big companies back then. Um and it takes two months and especially when you've invested so much time and you let let's say fail after one and a half months in the last rounds, right? It just feels like oh my god it's very frustrating in a way, right? and and especially when you are not uh you you don't especially when you're not ready for failures because at certain time you like oh I work in this organization I can do whatever and so on right but that's that's not that's not the aspect I was uh worried about I was just very uh very uh very curious and also I was very you know a way at at at in some proportion I was also frustrated because I failed those interviews I was like Wow. Like what what did I do really wrong? Like is the these small things are like the deciding factors for like uh organizations like of course I was taking interviews back in the days as well and I was taking technical rounds. I I I do good in technical rounds. So there's no problem. I did good and technical rounds but what about the other p other things other aspects of it right >> and >> then I started interviewing and interviewing I saw I got some offers and uh later on I thought like I had some organizations in my mind and I was like let's let's get these uh done because you know everyone wants to get an offer from a fan company and everyone wants to you know like it's just >> it's just I wanted to see because I was preparing I was trying to understand what what are the things I really am really not good at and I was trying to search out um different people different resources learn from them and so on and then I started seeing successes like and and one of the interviews uh I gave like after from the starting of the failure from the four months down the line I gave an interview for an organization and I performed so well the question was supposed to take like 20 minutes. Uh, no, no, the question was supposed to take like 1 hour, but I solved it within 20 minutes. And the guy who was taking my interview, he was so surprised. He was like, he thought like I kind of knew it. It was a question on recursion and backtracking. And I was like, >> sure. >> And he was like, let me give you another question. He gave me another question of a similar sort. And I solved it again. And he was very surprised. And then he started asking me like, hey, what do you do? interview I said like hey I also take interviews is I'm also I see lot of these questions and I have worked hard very hard back in my days when I was starting my career right so I know the basics uh and then later on the next round happened the next round so the the that organization was supposed to have like six rounds in total and this was like somewhere the second or the third round right so he gave the feedback and the next round surprisingly somebody got absent and the next round was taken by director of engineering. He gave me some he told me like I have heard good things about you da da da and he gave me a tricky question again somehow and I solved it again and he was like I've never seen uh someone quote like that. I was like I I of course I've been preparing from last four months for these kind of questions. Of course it's it's a preparation. It's not I'm like super genius or something. I just I have prepared quite a lot right and uh then he said to me like tomorrow you'll get the offer don't worry about the next two rounds I was like wow so that that day I realized you know like effort and hard work takes you a long way >> and it's it's not really about which university or which uh which company or where you have worked and so on. If you if you really prepare and you go for it and you give your blood, sweat and everything you got, you can crack any uh any organization. So in 2020, I also crack one of the fang organizations and then later on I went on to uh join Revolute. Uh I really love fintech. Uh I'm a really big fintech uh person. I really am a big fan of fintech. uh I because I totally believe you know money really enables the world to move and that's the reality and uh if you could work on something which really brings impacts on most of the life of the people or all of the people that's really amazing and I really got that opportunity to work there so yeah uh that's uh that's one of the reason I started with this book because these all frustrations led me to think that there could be many people like me who will be failing and have would have no idea why they are failing and and back in the days uh you would have you would get simple responses like we found a better candidate or something and that doesn't help anyone right so what I did was I took my time instead of writing a book in two months or three months and launching it I took my time I did my research I talked with a lot of recruiters in in my organization my friends, people who are uh giving interviews and try to understand uh what what are the difficulties they face right and I have taken roughly around more than 150 interviews so far in in a decade in like in the last few years especially when I since I started interviewing and I've given more than 200 interviews as well in 10 years more or less I'm not even counting the HR interviews those then it will go way more right so yeah uh And then this was my main thought u and it came to me when I was meditating. So I do meditate uh from last 12 years now. Uh and it came to me like this could be something really that I could bring I could put my energy into and uh bring value to the people uh because I truly believe at my core like whatever you have learned you have to leave it here and then you will die one day and that's a sad reality. Uh so and that's what and what's the point of having an amazing life, learning from so many good people, talented people, coming across so many opportunities and not giving back. So >> yeah, >> it's just it's just >> yeah so it's just a way to you know share my knowledge and whatever I've learned acquired from uh this world itself. It's not something I slept and I came up with the ideas. Uh it's a pure research. It's what it works. And yeah, that's the book. >> I And I love that too, right? It's like the unfortunate sort of grim reality is like we don't we don't live forever. We have a limited time. And there's, you know, people will talk about like their legacy and things like that or you'll hear people say like, you know, someone was on their deathbed and they were reflecting on life and it's like, I have so many regrets. I wish I did. I you know, whatever things. And I think one of the one of the best ways in my opinion that you can try to help mitigate those feelings is like having a fulfilling life that involves helping other people because at the end of the day like you will cease to exist and something that you can do that has impact is is helping others. Especially like you were saying, you're acquiring these skills, like this knowledge, this experience. Like what better way than to try and help the other people that are experiencing the same things that you were going through, right? Like how how can you help those individuals because you will understand them so well having gone through the same things. So, uh, I think, yeah, I just wanted to say I think that's, uh, it's I don't want I don't want to necessarily say like a noble thing, but I very much align with the idea that we have this we have such a great opportunity to help other people and we should we should take advantage of that. But something you had said along the way when you were describing the interview process, right? Like kind of leading you to getting to to want to write this book, you talked about, and I I don't want to gloss over it because I think it's critical. This idea that you had to prep, you had to put in hard work. It wasn't just like I'm gonna apply, magically, get the interview, magically it's going to work out. You had to be very consciously putting in effort. So what what about interviewing is like a skill like why why does it need effort? Why is it something you have to practice from your experience? >> Um I mean I mean it's it's basically I would say it's a skill because you're not interviewing every day and and the important thing is what is asked in an interview. It depends on especially the size of the organization you're working uh for right or you're interviewing for it really makes a big difference because let's say you're working in a startup right and you decide oh tomorrow I will join Amazon right and but the requirement and expectations and how Amazon works as an organization are way different than how a startup works so and they are interviewing from that expectations that someone would come and contribute to our product or our organization right >> okay >> so definitely you cannot like uh take it as in like I will wake up tomorrow and I am the I did computer science engineering and let's get it rolling right u because there are a lot of rounds depending of the organizations right for example even if you are a superstar uh in coding right but what about like engineering manager round what about um like technical interview what about uh when you have interview with the team members to check team wound or a behavior interview, right? Or uh checking on uh checking on the offers or how to how to negotiate these things are >> right >> big thing right because you can always underell yourself as well. So these all things are really important and I named that this book uh interview champion because it's it's not a book which I would say it's not a typical book like you go and check it out for answers like hey are the 20 questions uh behavioral questions and you will learn this and you will get this answer and that'll be nice because the reason is even if you crack the interview and you are not that person that will be very difficult time for you and the organization. that that is such a key point and I I think we should kind of focus on this for a moment because uh I I think it's common and I don't blame people for it, right? Like human nature, we want shortcuts, right? Someone might say to you like you've done this before like you've done it many times, you've been successful at it. tell me, just give me the list of things I need to have or or do to be successful. And what they don't want to hear, and like I I get it, but what they don't want to hear is you need to practice and do hard work because they're like, "Well, why should I have to do that if you already know how it how it works? You've been successful. Just tell me the shortcut. Just give me that." But the shortcut is like you need to actually do the work. And the sooner you understand that and do the work, the more practice you get at it, right? It's not it's not just you snap your fingers and you have these qualities because exactly as you said, what's going to happen when you say say you could trick the interviewer, they give you the job, what's going to happen the very first day at work? Yeah, I mean definitely and and the most important thing people so so overestimate their memory in the sense like they think they remember everything they learned 10 years ago or four years ago or two years ago and so much so many things are happening in the life like you get just overwhelmed and you can always forget about the basic concepts and it's so important >> absolutely >> to brush up it's just like you know if you have a dirt over a surface is then definitely it will look very dirty but if you clean it up it will look exactly the same shiny way it used to look when you bought it. So it's similar in our memory right it's you know the things but it goes somewhere down that you know uh storage box then you need to just brush it up and then you're ready again but that I would you'll be surprised like you know you might be knowing right you're already hiring right in the organization it takes so much time to hire a good engineer and I I you'll be surprised a lot of people just come unprepared unprepared in the sense they touch base on basic things in the sense of what they do in daily basis but when you go back to the core concepts then there is some trouble going on >> yep absolutely and something like I've I've said this publicly like on live streams and stuff and maybe in recorded videos but the when I interview people I have found that like I don't ask trick questions right my coding interview questions and even like the behavioral ones. I don't do trick questions and I don't do trick questions or even what I would consider difficult questions in programming rounds because I it's it's unfortunate but like I don't even need to do tricky questions and it filters out candidates very fast. So something as simple as like literally like make me a linked list like in any language you want because you've told me that you can program right so pick your most comfortable language make me a linked list and you would be amazed at how many people just struggle with it and it's one of those things too if someone had programmed and they were like I can do that very easily. Um, even if someone didn't had never made a link list, if they wanted to ask questions like what, you know, tell me some behavioral traits about a a link list, like what should it do? And I could explain it to them. They could code it very fast. I I would say if you've programmed before, it should come pretty quick. And if someone aces it and they're like, well, that was the easiest question. I can at least build on that question and say, oh, how would we switched it from a singly linked list to a doubly linked list? Like, what what changes about that? Right? I can extend that question, but I would like literally most of the time I don't need to do that because people struggle with the very basic concepts of like just having things point to other references like just the basics and it's I think it's honestly just because they didn't prepare. Maybe they focused so much of their effort into like how did I get my my resume visible to get the interview, right? So much energy goes into that then they get the interview and it's like they haven't actually prepared to go code something. So yeah, it's very interesting >> but but u the thing is like you're absolutely right and but even every step is important but what happens is when you start interviewing it's a two months process right and you have different rounds which expects different things from you and what happens is >> life also takes over so sometimes you're not in the mood we are humans right it's not like we are always in the best energy and we we can do the best I always say like you know like if you want to uh climb Mount Everest you would have to become that person who will climb the Mount Everest. The mount Everest will never come down. So in the same way if you want to crack let's say one of the biggest organizations in the world or some fancy startup or some AI startup which is very popular these days. If they have requirements you would have to fulfill those requirements. If you do, you're in. If you don't, the it's zero or one, right? It doesn't work like >> yeah another way. So, >> and this is the reason I wrote uh this book because I have there are 13 chapters and three bonus chapters in the book which which really u which really entails different rounds and what is the requirements, what is the different mindset required uh to crack uh to go into this interview and to crack this interview. what is expectations, how you should behave, not behave and uh other things which are like commonly asked questions and so on. But even with the behavioral questions, I have tried to give a tool in the sense that how to think about that like what is if someone asked this question to you, what are they really expecting and and are you that person who can who can really uh who who can really answer this question in a way they are expecting because if you are not then you need to become that person you need to and I've also seen like everyone has really great experience most of the people have great experience is they don't write it and don't they don't reflect back to see what I did because it's not like hiring managers ask questions which are out of nowhere is simple questions right >> yeah so you're you know it's a good point right it's like the the mindset that you have to have when going through these is like is understanding what people like basically people are trying to extract information out of you to gauge the the value that you'll be able to bring to the the company. Right? So there's there are reasons behind the questions and having the right mindset about the question. It's like you know if you if you think about questions on an exam in school, right? Basically you are you're trying to write the correct answer down. And in an interview, it's a little bit different because it's not just, you know, in a say in a coding round, you just put the final answer. You just write the code. You don't say anything. You just wrote it cuz you memorized it or something. And then they go, "Oh, excellent job. Here's a perfect score." They might say, "It's good. You got the code. Now walk us through it. Now debug it. Now let's talk about the test cases. Let's talk about why you picked this algorithm." Like, you know, where does it fall down for? There's so much other stuff that goes into that. And I think to your point about like mindset and understanding why you're being asked these questions enables you. I love that you keep saying like you want to become this person, right? Because when you are this person, it really entails that you understand why you're coding these things. you're understanding why these experiences from your career or education or even you know side projects and things like that why these things are so valuable and then you can talk about them almost like it's just a natural thing because you have become this person and I I just I love that framing it's not again it's not show me the shortcut it's become the person >> yeah and and frankly speaking like that that's a fair reality what I've learned so far right there is no shortcut and if there is a shortcut the the quicker you reach there the faster you will come back as well so so that's how how I feel about it and because the reason is like what happens is when you prepare preparation leads to confidence and what happens is your confidence leads to attitude of like I can figure out anything in life now right and when you are open to new learning and you're curious then You are able to figure out pretty much everything even if you don't know stuff today and today we live in a digital age. We can anyone can crack any company in the world no doubt no matter they have computer they have done computer science engineering degree or not. I have worked with really phenomenal engineers who are from the boot camp who are from the history background and they switch to software engineering who had nothing to do with computer science at all. So I really want to break that myth as well that only people who do computer science engineering and who are gifted with who started coding at 12 can become great engineers. It's not the case at all. It's no no not at all. >> Right. So from your experience then um like do these like I know you're saying uh people can be successful from these different backgrounds. Have you observed that uh it's necessarily helpful or would you say it's like it's a personal thing like if you want to go to university then go do that if you want to go to boot camp then go do that have you seen any sort of differences or do any of them set people apart or is it truly a a personal preference >> I I think there is one difference which is really really which you can see it clearly I don't know like what happens is when you go to go to computer science engineer engineering uh and you especially in India like you are going through a lot of preparation for the exams to get into university and whatsoever what it does it it gives you uh perseverance and it gives you grit to go for it >> okay >> and that grit and perseverance you carry all your life so things which seems like difficult to other people because you're used to working so hard it just seems like it's easier to you but the thing is it's equally hard for you as well. It's just you have exercised that muscle in your brain and you're so used to solving these hard problems or you're so used to working like effort like very putting a lot of effort on those things that it simply seems like you are doing it effortlessly but believe me nothing is effortless even I was I was yeah I was listening to Roger Federer's speech yesterday and he said the same thing like it might seem like it's effortless less, but there's a lot of effort which went in to make it look like it's effortless. So, preparation is the key. Hands down on that. Yeah. >> Very very interesting. Right. So, uh I kind of I want to repeat this back because I I I think it's a it's a good point. So, and correct me if I'm wrong on this, right? But it sounds like from your perspective, it's not like say university or college depending where you are, right? It's not that these are innately better things, but they are a they're a pathway that will for most people sort of force you to exercise grit, right? You're going to be challenged whether it's getting into there, whether it's uh the projects or the exams are hard, but you're basically for a prolonged period of time set up with a bunch of challenges that you have to overcome. So again, not that college or university is superior to other paths, but it basically forces you to exercise grit and perseverance to get through these things. Is that a fair statement? >> Yes, it's a fair statement. Uh but I I would like to say it's not necessarily true in terms of like only universities can can produce that grit and perseverance in you. Right. >> Right. >> There definitely other things you are working upon. Let's say you somebody and there are a lot of examples like somebody dropped dropped out and they built a company or someone was it's all about really what I'm trying to say is all it's all about the work you put in. If you can find yourself in an environment which forces you to put a lot of work and to become better at something, you will even surpass people who have done university. No, no questions asked, right? is just these things like put you in that environment which makes you work hard and that's pretty much it and that's where why it's always said you know you are the best of five people around you and things like that because when everyone else is working hard around you you're like oh I should definitely work hard now >> yeah that's uh and no and thank you for for calling that out right it's it's not so university and knowledge can be these these paths that do provide that option, but it does not mean that there aren't other things that provide the same thing or perhaps even better for different individuals. It comes back to you put in the effort, you put in the consistency and over time you kind of train yourself to to kind of go through these things. I I recall and I' I've told people that when I went to university, I went to university for computer engineering because especially for me at the time it was like if I want to be in software and at the time I wanted to be in hardware but it was like there's no other way to do this unless you have a university degree and in Canada actually if you want to become uh a professional engineer so it's a professional designation you aren't even allowed to call yourself a software engineer unless you have the professional designation. Um, in Ontario, one of the provinces in Canada, there there's an organization that will go around to companies and say you cannot have these job titles that say software engineer unless they are truly software engineers. >> It's a it's a professional designation like a doctor or a lawyer. So um for me like growing up and kind of going well if this is the direction I want to go in it for me it meant I have to go to university you have to go to an accredited school so on and so forth but the reality is I did that you have to go take an ethics test you have to get hours under a professional engineer and I never did those those last things but so in Canada I could not legally call myself a professional engineer because I'm Not but do I do software engineering work? Absolutely. And so that's the distinction. You can do work labeled that it is of software engineering type >> but you cannot be a software engineer. So I wanted to share that because that forced me into a university path. But I've always told people that I didn't like university. I didn't felt or I didn't feel like I was learning in school. But I felt like my internships I was learning a lot. But when you talked about perseverance, it really made me think that school for me absolutely helped with that. I went from in high school having like top grades, not having to try to university being like every class was like you're about to fail. And I remember being like I have to work very hard to survive now. Like that's how it felt. if I've never had to do this before and now I have to do it. And it was five years straight of just like how do I how do I survive? And it taught me that if I put in the effort, which I never had to do before. I was fortunate that way. If I put in the effort, the good things will come. So, I hadn't really thought about it that way until you mentioned it. But that's what university taught me was you have to work hard. And I watched my math grades that used to be like 95 in high school drop to like 50 and over the course of university get back up to like in the 80s just and over time, right? They didn't happen overnight. Took five years for them to recover. So had to work hard. >> Yeah, exactly. I mean the environment does really plays a role. Uh also I have seen individuals I like to say that I have I have a friend he was a he's a really uh he was into really he's a really great photographer in a way that he he published some photographs in National Geography uh channel and awesome and the level of detail he knows about photography is so much that >> later on when he switched to computer science engineering because he he met me as a colleague uh in one of the organization Right. Uh he was telling me one day that the level of effort I put into master the craft of uh like taking photos, it really helped him to become who he is today because the reason is the computer science or any programming language does need the same level of details and the level of hard work he had to put in to go through the boot camp and learn. So I then reflected back and I saw like oh that's basically the same quality. It's just the hard work and the perseverance and the grit this dude has for his own craft that got carried away in this profession now because you know there's a saying like what you do one uh as you do uh the saying is it's like uh the way you do one thing is the way you do everything right. >> Okay. Yeah. >> Yeah. So it's basically if you do something even in the small things at home right if you like to uh take care of your house you'd like to keep it clean and everything I think that also reflects back in your professional uh life as well you like to keep things managed you like to think keep things clean so yeah >> it's a this idea that like even you know like the smallest details in life the smallest actions you take if if everything you do is like looking for a shortcut in in something or you don't put effort into things like that carries over into other stuff. But uh if you Yeah, I I I get the the analogy there. I think I think it's really good that like you can and this goes it all comes back you brought up this point that I think is going to be a huge takeaway for me, right? It's a it's such a good way to phrase you want to become this person, right? So, if you're imagining what this person is that embodies all of these things that you want to accomplish, right? It's it's this buildup of all the things that you're doing in life, even small things like paying attention to detail, being curious, like you can be exercising these things in every part of your dayto-day. And the more that you are doing that, embracing being curious, embracing, you know, solving difficult things, like I don't know, like you could pick something around the house, you have to go mount something on the wall and it's going to be very challenging to figure out how to do this properly because I don't know whatever constraints you have. But going and doing these things and being curious about how to solve it, going through the problem solving steps, you are be you it sounds kind of funny cuz I'm trying to pick something completely different from programming, but practicing these types of things over and over in different aspects of life allows you to have these qualities that very much carry over into into programming and software engineering. So yeah, it's uh I I just I love this uh this idea of like you have to become become the person, right? It's it's great. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean and it starts very with the small steps like you know when you have to move a mountain you have to start by carrying stones right and that's very uh a simple way to put on like if you have a big target to achieve you would have to start small look at what's missing what can I do here and then you would have to act like >> what a person who will become that >> would act like and then you would find the checklist >> absolutely Right? So let's say let's say I want to uh let's someone want to crack uh let's say Netflix or Amazon or Microsoft. There's a checklist for that. It's not like it's in in the air or they ask something out of the universe. It's very finite. And that's what uh made me realize that it's not like this is a skill which has some magic going on. It's very simple. You just need to know the the the real uh real what do you say the real uh circumference of what needs to be learned, >> right? That absolutely makes sense. Um okay, we we talked about persevering through things and putting in the effort and the other thing that you mentioned too uh especially early on in the conversation, right? Like going through interview rounds absolutely takes time, right? It's not uh and some comp you kind of talked too like at different companies and stuff it can be different right some especially smaller companies might be able to move faster but especially some of the the big tech companies like it can feel pretty slow so how do you approach like balancing all of that going on because usually too you're applying to multiple companies you might be interviewing with multiple companies you might have take-home assignments and things like that how do you how do you approach uh whether it's from mindset or other things that you're trying to do to make sure that you can stay on top of all of that and just keep your head on. I I I will tell you uh like I have interviewed quite a lot right and I've taken interviews and given on the both the sides when you do interview quite a lot on different scale of organization you start seeing patterns especially in the home take-home assignment right if I talk about front end uh there will be very similar components which will be used in the different types of applications like you would have form let's say you would have table you will have pagenation going on or things like that, right? Um what I how I used to save time was I I created my own kind of a library in a way where I just did it the way the best I could do from my experience and learning and wherever a similar question would come up I will just pick it up and put it there. So what will happen and I also created my scaffold like a starting project which would have my own settings and stuff in that and which would really help me to you know kickstart my project very quickly without thinking like oh I need to put this uh new approach there and now these are the new standards and so on. And of course you need to keep updating that personal library whatever you created and personal packages or personal components whatever you created for your project and when the opportunity comes to you for a take-home assignment you just copy and paste and you ship it. The reason I'm saying you need to do it is because there is a next round which where they take the interview about it. So if you would have not done it yourself, you are preparing yourself for failure. >> But if you would have written each line of that code understanding it very well, you have written the test for it very well. Then you can explain it what and you can also tell like what is missing because most of the time that's the question asked like if you would have given more time how would you do it better >> but if you have not written it yourself you would have would have you would have not that sense or you would have not you would not have that sense of understanding what could have done better because you have done it you have not done it in the first place. So, >> right, but it it's it literally comes back to you have to become the person, right? If you wanted to be the person that would be a good fit in this job, the right person for that job would not have like cheated to just go get the answer from somewhere else. They would literally be the person who coded it up, did the research about what needed to happen, put the time and effort into understanding what they were building, wrote the tests, and like you know, they have an idea of what they put together. That is the person that you need to become. So again, if you're looking for the the shortcut and you're like, I'm just going to ask Chad GPT and I got the answer. Like if you're going to do that, you better spend the time understanding it so that it be it becomes your answer, not just >> copy and pasted it with no understanding. And again, like so I'm not trying to say chat GPT is a tool you can't or shouldn't use, but you you need to have the understanding because the person that you're trying to be is going to have that. >> You know, you know, I always say, you know, what's the ne what is the toughest question in the interview? which comes after your answer. So that's the toughest question of the interview. So if you have not prepared yourself the answer you have given, >> you are not that person yet and you don't know about it. You just said read it somewhere and gave it. When the counter question will come, you will fail miserably. There's no doubt about it. >> And it's going to be super awkward. >> Exactly. Exactly. And I have seen it multiple times. Right. people people would uh you know come up with an answer looking into chat GPT and sometimes people are also like looking into chat GPT or during the interview somehow you and then you ask the counter question and that person is let me think for 20 minutes >> or let me think for a few minutes and then you know that >> then you know that it's it's not sinking in I mean this is a sad truth but you know like a lot of people are doing that but you know it immediately like uh like if someone is cheating or someone is trying to do something you know so it's very important to be that person because okay you cleared the interview you got the job but on the ground level when you will be asked to do those tasks then it's going to be a very bad time >> yeah you need you need to become that person and I think the the sooner that people realize that it's within reach like you just like anyone else you put in the time the effort the practice and it will like and you will continue to get better. So, as long as you just accept like, yeah, I have to do work and that's okay. We all do it like then you're you're just closer to becoming that person. >> I mean, I I I mean, I when I moved to Germany, I started waking up at 5:00 a.m., right, every day. And I've been trying to do stick to it most of the days of the year, especially in summer. Winters, I move it half an hour later. Uh but when I was interviewing during 2020 uh 2020 I really make made a point. I was waking up early preparing it preparing for the interviews really putting my effort brushing my knowledge going back to the old school days remembering about data structures graphs trees link list doing all those questions and then I really saw a lot of successes. So after that I gave I think six uh um I gave interviews for six organizations. I got five offer letters. So >> wow. >> So it's it's not like the hard work always pays and that I always like to say people and as you were saying there is no shortcut. There is no shortcut. I mean people like to find oh give me those 10 questions which will get me into this job. Okay I gave you the question. I gave you the answer, but if you don't understand the answer, it will not work out, >> right? Yeah, that's it's a good point. I I think the last thing I want to kind of dive into in our conversation here is um and you brought this up earlier that you've had different experiences at different places and the fact that even interviews look different at different places, scale of company, right? Like how whether it's a startup or, you know, closer to big tech or that kind of thing. What what is it about like when people are going through this process, they are of course interviewing at a company, but if we flip that idea around like how should people approach like trying to figure out where they would be a good fit? Like where should people be going to work? Um how do they navigate that kind of perspective? Oh that's that's a really great question because uh I would say every person is not made for like every kind of company. So every company expects different kind of effort and uh you know uh your behavior and every company has different vision different value. Uh so if you are going into startups you need to get ready for it's not a typical 9 toive job right if you are joining a startup that's a fair truth uh about it. So you need to see where you would learn the most. What are your priorities in life at at that particular time wherever you are right because if you are starting up I started uh with my career like doing freelancing and then I joined a startup right and that made me learn a lot because I was there to learn and understand really how the products are built and I've always worked in a product based company so I am all about I like to really put my energy because you know they say like we are all made of stardust And it's all energy. So I have a limited time on this earth. That's how I see it. And I would like to put my energy on things I would really feel happy about that I was able to create some impact with my life. So I when I'm joining the organization the factors which which I have figured out over the year is like vision of the company like are they solving a great problem? Is it is it a big issue? uh is it worth that I put my effort into it? Would it would I be happy putting my eight hours out of 16 waking hours a day? Uh that's one thing. Then the second factor for me becomes people. Are the people I am going to work with are they open to discussions? Are they humble? Uh would I enjoy working with them? would they do they have the mindset of exploring new things or or if and also like how is the growth works in that organization like every person is different I have also seen people who don't want promotions in their career they are chill which may sound weird but it happens in Europe people just decline promotions as well that's okay and there's nothing wrong or right it's just what is the priority of your at this yours at this point in time Okay. Um vision of the company, people uh and uh the most important thing, one of the most important thing is uh the culture. What's the culture of the organization is is do I align with that culture is like the culture would be great but what if I think differently or what if and that that is for the inter that is what the interview is for you. You are they are interviewing you you're also interviewing them that you can understand would I fit here. So for example in terms of startups uh in terms of scaleups in terms of midsize companies in terms of big corporations or it also depends on is it a service based company or is it a product based company that also makes a big difference because if you're going into service based company then you would deal with different clients but if you are going in product based company they might have different products but that will be part of very similar suit right you will be working in one product most of your time and then probably could switch to another product. Uh so it's it's all together um depends what you want uh what would you like to experience. I really recommend uh people who are just starting up uh to go into startups because that's where you learn the most. You have you are in your early 20s. You have your high energy uh you know uh is not big responsibilities on you at the moment in terms of like family and all those kids and stuff like that. Um I mean that that is true for most of the people. There are always uh you know exceptions. I would like to say that uh but depending upon where are you in your life, make the right decision and then just uh you know like uh make your life in the way you would like to live it because I I totally uh don't agree uh or I don't totally support things like you need to work 24/7. There is a face I I have also done that uh when I was uh starting up in my career. You do it for a while and then you learn from it and then that you know that's what I said the grit and the perseverance come you gain that perseverance and grit and then the hard things becomes easier for you over the time and >> right >> what you were taking 16 hours to accomplish now you know the tricks and you now you know how to optimize your time you get it done in two hours so it's just about practice practice uh gives you efficiency that's how I feel about it >> that's uh such a good way to put it too. I think um when people have asked me my pers like because I'm at Microsoft now obviously in big tech and I think maybe people have the perception that because I'm at Microsoft that I would encourage every single human being who's wants to get into software development like you must go to Microsoft and like I think Microsoft is great absolutely that's why I'm here but do I do I recommend that it's the best place to start? I you know it's a it's a great company and they take care of uh of people that are early in career for sure but my own experience put me through startups and I think that it would not be a fair statement if I said oh just yeah like absolutely start at Microsoft like that's the only thing you should be focused on like yeah I want you to to get to Microsoft I think it would be a great place to work at but my recommendation from my own experience is that startups taught so much that I truly just don't think you would get those experiences at Microsoft or Amazon or Facebook or any other big tech company. And it does come back to yeah, at a startup more likely than not, you're going to be working a ton >> because you're in this mode where for mo and this is most startups, I'm not saying it's a rule, it's really hard to make generalizations, right? But most startups, they're fighting to survive because they're not yet stable with income. Like they're they're profitable, right? Like they might have investment, but that's like that's that's burning away. So you're in this mode where you are part of a group of people trying to make something survive. And if you believe in what you're doing and you're enjoying it, you are going to find yourself in this position where you are working your butt off. >> And yeah, that might be a period of your your life, right? I'm not saying that this is what you do for the rest of eternity, but going through that is going to teach you so many things and you're going to have so much practice that you might not otherwise get. So uh my recommendation for people as a general statement would be yeah absolutely if you can find a startup um obviously consider the risks and stuff like that but I think that >> from a learning and experience perspective startups are like a a fascinating opportunity. Yeah, there's there's no doubt about it and especially I would say u you should also look for the product you're working for into or the or what you are developing what you want to do for me it's all about impact right I if I'm working on something that brings a change in people's life or that moves a little a little bit if I am able to put a little uh contribution into that I'm really h uh happy because there are two things which are really important important one is the time you cannot get it back and second is if you could help someone make their life easier that's how I feel there are two things which I really really appreciate if like you're bringing an impact in those two categories and of course another one is uh clean energy uh sustainability that's also very close to my heart as well um so yeah I mean for everyone it could be different I'm not saying these are the golden rules or you should do this. >> No, no, no, no, no. It's uh you should figure out sit down. That's how what I did. I I sat down one day uh I basically started writing what I would like to do with my life, right? And then you come up with a list of few things and then you you have to realize that we all are mortal I think in some way or form and then make sure that you put your energy in what you what you really want to put your energy into. So and then I think it could be a meaningful life. I'm also trying uh you know my best. It's not like u you know anyone has figured I don't think anyone ever figures out. >> It's just it becomes easier over the time. >> I love that. I think that's that's a great perspective and uh no this has been I think a very enlightening conversation. Like I said, I think one of the things that is a a huge takeaway for me going through this is I think I have a better way to try and frame up for people um about becoming the person, not just looking for the shortcut that makes you look like the person. So, uh I think I'm going to be leveraging that as I as I go forward and and try to help others. So, uh I wanted to say thank you so much for making the time to chat with me. Uh, I'm gonna I'm gonna get links and stuff from you. I know I have a couple especially for your book that we can that we'll make sure is in the description and the comments and stuff so people can check that out. But, uh, for people that are watching this, if do you want to share with them like where they can check you out and get in touch with you? >> Yes. Uh, so I, uh, you can find me every on any social media handle. You can find me uh, by the name Dynamic Singh that I got uh, during my university days. There's a story behind it. Uh, but yeah, that's my social media uh, handle. It's also dynamics.com. Uh you can find about the book on uh at interviewchampion.com and also uh the things we talked about regarding startups, scaleups, midsize companies. I've also covered all these things to clear up the water for you so that you can understand which kind of company should I target, what where should do I fit right now. Uh and yeah uh there's a special offer uh for your audience as we decided I really wanted to give it back. Uh so that will be valid uh for uh like for two weeks and uh yeah so you can avail that there will be discount whenever I launch. I'm in the process of uh recording my audio book at the moment. I have not decided on what will be the special offer but uh definitely it will be uh something good for everyone. So yeah. >> Cool. No, I I really appreciate that and I'm sure that uh the viewers will as well. So So thank you so much. Um and yeah, this is a really great conversation. So I I do appreciate the time. >> Thank you so much, Nick. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me.